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Offline JFax

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Re: Paris
« Reply #120 on: November 26, 2015, 02:30:38 PM »
This thread is spreading in so many directions.

I speak more of a British english than american english. Also, democracy is not an american invention, and I dont prefer american politics.

Even though I am from "the west" I dont agree on how stuff are done. I do not directly notice an effect from the last wars waged apart from all the refugees coming to my city (transit city, thousands a day). I mostly fear a looming economic catastrophy and possibly a new world order due to countries going into extreme debt. The US in particular has insane debts and has defaulted twice in a short time. Waging costly wars which were doubtfully necessary in the first place might result in something much worse. If there is a economic crash, or if for example China (who lends the US huge amount of money) start putting preassure there could be a different world quite suddenly. A bit conspiracy sounding perhaps, but I can see how the US world dominance could fall rather quickly soon.

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Offline Cole

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Re: Paris
« Reply #121 on: November 26, 2015, 02:35:06 PM »
Lol indeed. Just because you live comfortably and free in the US doesnt mean that the foreign policy makes other countries similar

You continue to speak English when your a foreigner cause of America. You consume American culture and thought everyday. The foreign policy we as the West enforce is a joke but a necessary evil needed to maintain our lifestyle here in the West. There ain't no perfect but I believe in the American way of life simply cause even the lowest class citizen here has a minuscule chance to change how everything is done worldwide. Sure there is a lot of fall out and mistakes that happen but any society is guilty of that besides when it happens in the US our influence is so great that it happens worldwide but still for any real change to happen in our society it has to happen in America first. This is all coming from an immigrant btw.

How's that going to happen when your poorest citizens are being shot by white neighbourhood watch and police officers? What about all the race riots that have happened recently? What about the hilariously low education levels you have? Or the amount of people living in poverty? Not sure how your lowest class citizen is changing shit.
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Offline manwe

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Re: Paris
« Reply #122 on: November 26, 2015, 02:36:33 PM »
Am I being silly by being more concerned about the disastrous cuts to public services than the 'terror threat'?

this. the whole terror thing is a sideshow. bread and circuses, and I guess a bit of terror so we can curtail privacy.

Inequality continues to increase, but i think enough people are starting to wake up to the daylight robbery that's going on and the rise of Corbyn, and Sanders in America (although they're starting with a major handicap) is a very encouraging sight.

and btw, even though Denmark and Sweden are a bastion of civilisation Sweden especially has been on an alarming path for at least the past 10 years. I'm not confident the current generation will have the wisdom to reverse the rise of neoliberal ideas simply because many of them seem to lack the context to really understand how good social democracy has been to them.
but that's a side-note, because I'd probably still rather settle in Scandinavia, rubbish weather and all, than anywhere else.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 02:38:52 PM by manwe »

Offline LukeTom

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Re: Paris
« Reply #123 on: November 26, 2015, 02:59:23 PM »
I mostly fear a looming economic catastrophy and possibly a new world order due to countries going into extreme debt. The US in particular has insane debts and has defaulted twice in a short time. Waging costly wars which were doubtfully necessary in the first place might result in something much worse. If there is a economic crash, or if for example China (who lends the US huge amount of money) start putting pressure there could be a different world quite suddenly.

I think the whole debt thing is largely a misnomer. Yes the US owes (what seems to us) to be a huge amount of debt. But the debt to GDP isnt actually that bad (half that of Japan I believe). 60% of the US' debts are in fact owned by the US. Divided up among various parts of the government, corporate investments into bonds, and private citizens investments into bonds. China only owns about 8% of total debt.

Lastly, the US is also owed a huge amount of money by many countries (Including China), so even though their debt is around 17t now, they are also owed a large amount of that.

Lastly the US will never realistically default on their debts: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/09/10/impossible-to-default/

Offline JFax

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Re: Paris
« Reply #124 on: November 26, 2015, 03:05:13 PM »
...and btw, even though Denmark and Sweden are a bastion of civilisation...

Not my intention to make any claim that scandinavia is above anyone else, not at all. The current political climate is much different than 10 years ago yes, I doubt Scandinavia will continue on the previous past and will soon be very different.
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Offline ginger

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Re: Paris
« Reply #125 on: November 26, 2015, 04:48:13 PM »
Lol indeed. Just because you live comfortably and free in the US doesnt mean that the foreign policy makes other countries similar

You continue to speak English when your a foreigner cause of America. You consume American culture and thought everyday. The foreign policy we as the West enforce is a joke but a necessary evil needed to maintain our lifestyle here in the West. There ain't no perfect but I believe in the American way of life simply cause even the lowest class citizen here has a minuscule chance to change how everything is done worldwide. Sure there is a lot of fall out and mistakes that happen but any society is guilty of that besides when it happens in the US our influence is so great that it happens worldwide but still for any real change to happen in our society it has to happen in America first. This is all coming from an immigrant btw.

Despite alaskun's many attempts to claim this title, you have just posted the most deluded comment in this entire thread.
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Offline streetStreet

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Re: Paris
« Reply #126 on: November 26, 2015, 04:56:40 PM »
Lol indeed. Just because you live comfortably and free in the US doesnt mean that the foreign policy makes other countries similar

You continue to speak English when your a foreigner cause of America. You consume American culture and thought everyday. The foreign policy we as the West enforce is a joke but a necessary evil needed to maintain our lifestyle here in the West. There ain't no perfect but I believe in the American way of life simply cause even the lowest class citizen here has a minuscule chance to change how everything is done worldwide. Sure there is a lot of fall out and mistakes that happen but any society is guilty of that besides when it happens in the US our influence is so great that it happens worldwide but still for any real change to happen in our society it has to happen in America first. This is all coming from an immigrant btw.

Despite alaskun's many attempts to claim this title, you have just posted the most deluded comment in this entire thread.

Holy fuck how plugged into the system does a guy have to be.

Offline condrbkr

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Re: Paris
« Reply #127 on: November 26, 2015, 06:03:18 PM »
I think you need to do a little research about income equality, happiness indexes, and standards of living. America isn't bad but there are much better.

Also, I don't consume American culture and thought everyday. I live in the UK and happily read British newspapers (bearing in mind we've had printed news before America even existed), listen to European rooted music, drive a French car, and watch British TV and comedies. I think you'll find that American culture in America is so fucking Ameri-centrist that you don't realise that other cultures thrive happily in their native countries, we just don't feel the need to force them on each other.

And fucking lol at "for any real change to happen in our society it has to happen in America first", you haven't even got a nationalised health service. In lots of aspects, America is decades in the past and the conservative right wing nut cases will happily regress it even further if they can.

I never said America is the first or anything. I'm just saying that American culture has the most impact all around the world. Global culture is American-centric. Hollywood, fashion, video games, tech industries are all American-centric. You participate in debates about American politics cause whether you like it or not you realize the importance of America in the world. For greater or worse(in my opinion greater).

American culture is weird it is Ameri-centric but at the same time it isn't. We consume cartoons with heavy Japanese influences, create music that was progressed by the British, eat food that is foreign but been Americanized. American culture isn't tied by any type of nativity which is probably the biggest appeal of it.

It's like this. I watch the UK Office. It's a bit too British, we don't share cultural mannerism, thought process, or what nots to share the same sense of humor. I just don't get it. Then I watch the American Office which is a water downed version of the British, dumbed down to the extent that any human being can watch it and get a cheap laugh. Sure you Brits will snarl at it cause of the lack of sophistication but I get something that is sort of British without it being too British. Same with pizza. Real Italian pizza isn't nearly as filling as the cheesed filled crust and every topping under the sun American counterpart. Real Italians will probably hate it but it's been Americanized so the world can enjoy it. Cause who doesn't enjoy a meal made for a glutton. Americanizing I think is dumbing something down or making it so simple that there isn't much to be explained. Now the world can enjoy it cause in a way it's more universal.

You can say you don't consume American culture and I'm sure you don't but you can't deny that your country favorite video game is Fifa, made by an American country. That box offices hits made by Hollywood aren't the biggest films of the year and whatever tech advancements the US produced has made it to the UK like Facebook and Instagram. Plus are there not Mcdonalds and Starbucks in your country too? Or that your politics haven't been shaped by American intervention in the Middle East. Even BMX is a hobby for the most part made by Americans run by Americans. UK might not be America but there is a hell of a lot of America in the UK than you care to admit too.

Back to my original point that in America the lowest citizen has a chance in creating something global. In a micro level think about someone like Eazy-E who pushed a certain type of culture or aesthetic in music that is being emulated world wide. Maybe some guy was doing it in France 10 years before or something like that but it didn't hit the audience til Eazy-E did. First in Compton, then the US, then the world. That's what I'm getting at. America sucks for A LOT of things but making a global impact no other country does it the same as America.

Plus everyone thinks the world sucks these days cause they spend all day looking at the computer wishing they were living some other person's life(which is sort of America's fault). Look at the people who did the Paris attacks, they aren't some cattle herder getting bombed in Afghanistan but just a bunch of a losers whose lives were good enough that they could go out and do something dumb like that. The real desperate are out there living not cause they want to but cause they don't have a choice. People on the internet act like they are the universal voice without realizing that a good faction of the world doesn't constantly voice their opinion online cause ain't nobody got time for that.

Offline alaskun

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Re: Paris
« Reply #128 on: November 26, 2015, 06:32:34 PM »
is anyone going to actually point out how anything I posted was "deluded?" or are we still just making stuff up/calling names because I annoy you? 
Am I anti-health because I (rightly) criticized obamacare?  Nobody's going to comment on the absurdity of being labeled anti-environment for questioning the government's motives?

in before "you're deluded if you think anybody is going to click/read..."


how about obama so far taking turkey's side in this, anybody going to comment on that/what it shows/how it's similar to past support for bad actors/what it could lead to?


I heard this quote again on the radio earlier... Putin: Downing of Russian jet over Syria stab in the back by terrorist accomplices

and it was bugging me all afternoon after seeing these along with the turkish convoy getting bombed and the area around where the plane/chopper were shot down getting obliterated...

PUTIN: WE INFORMED THE U.S ABOUT FLIGHT PATHS OF OUR PLANES. "THIS RAISES MANY QUESTIONS"

Turkey enters the war on the side of ISIL" says VP of Italian Senate

Putin: "Apparently, IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world"

it seemed familiar and I couldn't figure out why. then I remembered...

It seems like they want to accomplice as much as possible before being bombed to heaven comes.
freudian slip, or deliberate?

accomplice;
    a person who helps another commit a crime.
    synonyms:   partner in crime, associate, accessory, abettor, confederate, collaborator, fellow conspirator, co-conspirator

just thought it was kind of funny that turkey was the one to take that role
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 10:06:17 PM by alaskun »

Offline ginger

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Re: Paris
« Reply #129 on: November 26, 2015, 06:42:27 PM »
Dude, fuck off, we're ragging on condrbkr now.

PS I hope Russia levels Turkey and takes the Black Sea so Europe can have it's war and be done with this shit.
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Offline JFax

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Re: Paris
« Reply #130 on: November 26, 2015, 11:18:32 PM »
You still at it? If people get annoyed how you compose your posts then make them interesting. I actually took my time to read the last two links you posted.

I do not see how a Italian far right politician's (who is known for weird public comments) weird comment is relevant or interesting.

I in the third link did not read anything connected to your link description. All links were also from russian news agancies.
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Offline alaskun

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Re: Paris
« Reply #131 on: November 26, 2015, 11:30:48 PM »
Will you even acknowledge what's being said, or are you just going to say you don't like who said it?  Do you disagree with what he said?  Ok, I posted a link to a page that out-updated the quote I posted... Will you acknowledge the quote? Or who said it, or what it means for the next few years, or how it compares to warnings from the same person/people over the past few years? 

Germany just announced they're joining the "coalition against isil."  What about all the people they're bringing in who won't be happy with that?  Do you think they'll be bombing just isis? Obama and the people/nations who support him are still acting like assad has to be removed...

« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:46:36 PM by alaskun »

Offline JFax

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Re: Paris
« Reply #132 on: November 27, 2015, 01:06:26 AM »
Fine, I play along.

It is widely known fact that Turkey is politically edging towards a more islam-centric society driven by the current president. It was presented by my local news agencies as something negative. He won the election though, and if I remember correctly he won with a good margin.

It is in the Turkey rulers interest to contain the Kurdish seperatists and has been striking them hard after the previous attack, probably also delibralty the moderate Kurdish groups in Syria. I do believe that they have been holding back against ISIS in order to try and control the build up of Kurdish fighter (which they also regard as terrorists). Claiming however that they take ISIS side is just silly and something that sells articles.

Germany is not joining as an attacking partner, it is joining as a intelligence gathering player. It has been done by countries in similar wars before. You fit good cameras to jets and give the information to the ones carrying out the strikes. Essentially that means that they can join and seem like a contributor to the public and allies while at the same time not having to take on the negative sides coming from bombing.

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Offline LukeTom

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Re: Paris
« Reply #133 on: November 27, 2015, 08:55:10 AM »
Fine, I play along.

It is widely known fact that Turkey is politically edging towards a more islam-centric society driven by the current president. It was presented by my local news agencies as something negative. He won the election though, and if I remember correctly he won with a good margin.

It is in the Turkey rulers interest to contain the Kurdish seperatists and has been striking them hard after the previous attack, probably also delibralty the moderate Kurdish groups in Syria. I do believe that they have been holding back against ISIS in order to try and control the build up of Kurdish fighter (which they also regard as terrorists). Claiming however that they take ISIS side is just silly and something that sells articles.

Germany is not joining as an attacking partner, it is joining as a intelligence gathering player. It has been done by countries in similar wars before. You fit good cameras to jets and give the information to the ones carrying out the strikes. Essentially that means that they can join and seem like a contributor to the public and allies while at the same time not having to take on the negative sides coming from bombing.

Amen to that

Offline alaskun

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Re: Paris
« Reply #134 on: November 27, 2015, 02:10:00 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/us-knew-flight-path-plane-downed-turkey-putin-202631534.html
Quote
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks with French President during a meeting at the Kremlin in Moscow on November 26, 2015

Moscow (AFP) - President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday that Russia had given prior information to the United States of the flight path of the plane downed by Turkey on the Syrian border.

"The American side, which leads the coalition that Turkey belongs to, knew about the location and time of our planes' flights, and we were hit exactly there and at that time," Putin said at a joint press conference with French counterpart Francois Hollande in the Kremlin.
...

"They [our planes] have identification signs and these are well visible," Putin said. "Instead of [...] ensuring this never happens again, we are hearing unintelligible explanations and statements that there is nothing to apologize about."

the president of turkey actually says that if anybody should apologize for a russian jet/helicopter being shot down over syria, it's russia...

VIDEO - Erdogan: Russia should apologize - CNN
https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/669901386973360129


then he says russia/assad are the ones arming/funding isis...

"If you are seeking the source of weaponry and financial power of Daesh, the first place to look is the Assad regime and countries that act with it,"


and then he threatens to start a war if his planes are shot down over syria...
http://en.apa.az/news/235559
Quote
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan told CNN International his country will consider it an act of aggression if Russia takes down a Turkish plane violating Syrian airspace.

“In this case Turkey will be forced to take measures that will certainly not be discussed. And of course it would be an aggression against our rights of sovereignty and it’s the natural right of the state to protect those rights. We do not want to see any escalation of the situation in the region. We do not want to become a party to that. But those who side with Syria and escalate the tension, I think, are the responsible parties to this,” Erdogan said.

and our government/media is supporting him...





It is in the Turkey rulers interest to contain the Kurdish seperatists... Claiming however that they take ISIS side is just silly and something that sells articles.

The DIA/pentagon documents show that turkey HAS/DOES take the side of extremists for the purpose of taking out assad.

Quote
...the newly declassified report states that for “THE WEST, GULF COUNTRIES, AND TURKEY [WHO] SUPPORT THE [SYRIAN] OPPOSITION… THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF ESTABLISHING A DECLARED OR UNDECLARED SALAFIST PRINCIPALITY IN EASTERN SYRIA (HASAKA AND DER ZOR), AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SUPPORTING POWERS TO THE OPPOSITION WANT, IN ORDER TO ISOLATE THE SYRIAN REGIME…”.

The DIA report, formerly classified “SECRET//NOFORN” and dated August 12, 2012, was circulated widely among various government agencies, including CENTCOM, the CIA, FBI, DHS, NGA, State Dept., and many others.

The document shows that as early as 2012, U.S. intelligence predicted the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS), but instead of clearly delineating the group as an enemy, the report envisions the terror group as a U.S. strategic asset...

...

The following is excerpted from the seven page DIA declassified report:

 R 050839Z AUG 12



THE GENERAL SITUATION:

A. INTERNALLY, EVENTS ARE TAKING A CLEAR SECTARIAN DIRECTION.

B. THE SALAFIST [sic], THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, AND AQI ARE THE MAJOR FORCES DRIVING THE INSURGENCY IN SYRIA.

C. THE WEST, GULF COUNTRIES, AND TURKEY SUPPORT THE OPPOSITION; WHILE RUSSIA, CHINA AND IRAN SUPPORT [ASSAD].

We didn't really need to be told that though - if you've been paying attention over the years you'd have seen a ton of evidence that turkey's a major support base. I could post a ton of links about weapons shipments, fighter transport/protection, money/oil/prisoner deals, etc...  but you shouldn't need them.

Part of the gameplan laid out in that memo, as well as in the brookings institute study, as well as part of erdogans stated goals, is still being pushed for - the 'safe zones.'  I hear it on the radio every day as part of "obama's failure to take out assad, enforce the [false flag chemical attack] red lines, and create safe zones."  They say we're in the predicament we're in because obama wasn't successful with those things - no mention of the fact that those things are what's causing the predicament in the first place.


for you to say that the idea of turkey siding with IS/rebel terrorists "is just a way to sell articles" is flat-out retarded
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 03:14:21 PM by alaskun »

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Re: Paris
« Reply #134 on: November 27, 2015, 02:10:00 PM »

 

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