Bikeguide.org - Bike maintenance for BMX'ers
The Street => The Bike Shop => Topic started by: G on October 31, 2015, 05:20:47 PM
-
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/recalls/2015/10/29/quality-recalls-some-wethepeople-bmx-bikes-and-cranks#.VjVMq7fhDmH
-
aww shiiit
-
even the guys on bmxmuseum knew this would happen...
-
So what is the problem with the spindle?
Actually just google imaged it and the spindle has slits.
-
http://www.bikebiz.com/jobs/read/position-for-product-designer-manager
Someone got sacked.
-
Profile is doing it too. Where's their recall
-
Looking at the numbers for recall, 70 bikes, 170 cranks brings home how small the BMX market is in the scheme of things...
-
http://www.bikebiz.com/jobs/read/position-for-product-designer-manager
Someone got sacked.
Did someone really get fired over this? The job posting makes it look more like they need a CAD guy, not an engineer. This seems like it would be more of a failure on the engineers side vs. the CAD guys side.
-
Profile is doing it too. Where's their recall
they're probably paying the biz to not put it out.
-
http://www.bikebiz.com/jobs/read/position-for-product-designer-manager
Someone got sacked.
Did someone really get fired over this? The job posting makes it look more like they need a CAD guy, not an engineer. This seems like it would be more of a failure on the engineers side vs. the CAD guys side.
I was just joking.
-
So tempted to apply for that WTP job.
-
So tempted to apply for that WTP job.
Live the dream bro!
-
yeah im sure you could do better than slits in spindles
-
Those are almost as batshit insane as those Kastan single leg forks were.
-
So what is the problem with the spindle?
Actually just google imaged it and the spindle has slits.
Yeah, I was trying to figure out exactly what problem those slits would cause.... and I'm guessing "torsion." The force of cranks on a spindle is to twist the spindle in opposite directions. . . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_(mechanics) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_(mechanics))
So, I wonder why they're still on their website?
http://eclatbmx.com/aeon-crank/ (http://eclatbmx.com/aeon-crank/)
"BRUNO HOFFMANN RIDES OUR NEW AEON CRANK. THE AEON CRANK IS A BRAND NEW PRODUCT FOR 2015. THE IDEA BEHIND THE AEON, WAS TO TAKE THE PROVEN 2 & ½ PIECE SYSTEM AND DESIGN A WAY TO MAKE THE CRANK AS SIMPLE AND AS EASY AS POSSIBLE TO INSTALL AND REMOVE FROM YOUR BIKE.
AFTER A YEAR OF TESTING THE END RESULT IS A SUPER STRONG AND RELIABLE CRANK WHICH CAN BE ASSEMBLED WITHIN A MATTER OF MINUTES WITH TWO STANDARD ALLEN KEYS. THIS IS DOWN TO OUR PATENTED EXPANDING SPINDLE SYSTEM (ESS) WHICH CAN ONLY BE FOUND ON THE AEON CRANK."
(http://eclatbmx.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Eclat_aeon_011.jpg)
-
I feel like a lot of the companies making splined spindled cranks have been like "splines work just fine" in the past, but why would you need to change the design if it works just fine?
-
I feel like a lot of the companies making splined spindled cranks have been like "splines work just fine" in the past, but why would you need to change the design if it works just fine?
it's progress for the sake of progress.
Why does Eclat's color of black always look good?
-
probably to stop their warrenty dept getting emails from people who hammered the crankarm on without using any grease, then rode in the rain every day for a year and then got pissy cos they couldnt get them off again
-
my local
bikeshop mailorder actually has these on sale. I feel bad for the dudes that'll get it :/
-
Doesn't TheMerged guy on here now work as their Product Designer/TM?
I miss when that site was actually updated on a regular basis.
-
Some kids have way too short a memory to see the exquisite irony in this post.
-
I remember, CARBON. I remember. Sorry George.
-
Does anyone have the link to the original post?
-
what cos wombolts broke quite a bit?
-
Leave Britney alone
-
my eclat cranks just broked
-
Some kids have way too short a memory to see the exquisite irony in this post.
Never had a product recall.
Sure we had way more QC issues with the early batches of Wombolts and even Twombolts than I would have liked but there was nothing inherently flawed in the design which is backed up by the fact that we still make cranks using this design and they do have a very good reputation for strength now.
On the other hand, putting big sharp cornered slits down an axle loaded in combined bending and torsion was to my mind pretty obviously about as terrible a design as you could imagine... it's not like a few of these "might" break eventually, it was inevitable that they all would if actually ridden.
:)
G.
-
wrong thread. I hate how logging in to reply puts you into different threads...
-
Doesn't TheMerged guy on here now work as their Product Designer/TM?
I miss when that site was actually updated on a regular basis.
Not as product designer. He works with the team in "Product development" and "Team manager".
-
I think I know a guy who works as a product developer for them. Not sure how long he has been at it or if he is the only one they have.
Update; yes it seems like it was him. Taken from his fb:
Left Job at wethepeople bmx
30 September — Product Designer
Cologne, Germany
-
I think I know a guy who works as a product developer for them. Not sure how long he has been at it or if he is the only one they have.
Update; yes it seems like it was him. Taken from his fb:
Left Job at wethepeople bmx
30 September — Product Designer
Cologne, Germany
I'm about 101% sure that guy had nothing to do with this crank and 101% sure he was not fired.
-
http://www.bikebiz.com/jobs/read/position-for-product-designer-manager
Someone got sacked.
Did someone really get fired over this? The job posting makes it look more like they need a CAD guy, not an engineer. This seems like it would be more of a failure on the engineers side vs. the CAD guys side.
In smaller companies, that is usually the same guy.
-
bid sharp slits
-
Hahaha because no one ever broke any thing gsport or odyssey. Bike parts break. Get off yer high horse Georgie. I don't think I could name one of my friends that had wombolts or twombolts that didn't break them.
-
Hahaha because no one ever broke any thing gsport or odyssey. Bike parts break. Get off yer high horse Georgie. I don't think I could name one of my friends that had wombolts or twombolts that didn't break them.
You're missing the point completely but enjoy being a bitter jerkoff. When you figure out whether or not you can name one of your friends that didn't break Odyssey cranks then come on back and I'll Snapchat a pic of my cock to you.
-
I'll tell you several of my friends who broke them in the meantime.
-
my second hand wombolts never broke, but my eclats did
know loads of other people who broke em though ahaha
-
Hahaha because no one ever broke any thing gsport or odyssey. Bike parts break. Get off yer high horse Georgie. I don't think I could name one of my friends that had wombolts or twombolts that didn't break them.
You're missing the point completely but enjoy being a bitter jerkoff. When you figure out whether or not you can name one of your friends that didn't break Odyssey cranks then come on back and I'll Snapchat a pic of my cock to you.
What point am I missing? The fact that it took George 3 generations of cranks to finally make a set that didn't snap left and right? So what if the wemakethings guys designed one pair of shitty cranks? You think it's the first time a company has fucked something up trying to be innovating? For someone who has designed cranks that have had plenty of there own issues to point this out is funny.
-
Hahaha because no one ever broke any thing gsport or odyssey. Bike parts break. Get off yer high horse Georgie. I don't think I could name one of my friends that had wombolts or twombolts that didn't break them.
You're missing the point completely but enjoy being a bitter jerkoff. When you figure out whether or not you can name one of your friends that didn't break Odyssey cranks then come on back and I'll Snapchat a pic of my cock to you.
What point am I missing? The fact that it took George 3 generations of cranks to finally make a set that didn't snap left and right? So what if the wemakethings guys designed one pair of shitty cranks? You think it's the first time a company has fucked something up trying to be innovating? For someone who has designed cranks that have had plenty of there own issues to point this out is funny.
its extremely hard to gauge how good a pair of cranks are based on people's reports on the internet
1. say you sold 10,000 pairs of cranks "A", 50 pairs are faulty. you may see 40 of those with faulty cranks "A" talk about them on the internet, and come to the conclusion that these cranks "A" aren't that good.
2. now you're comparing these cranks "A" to another product by another company, cranks "B". you only see 20 bad reviews about them, so they can't be as bad as cranks "A" right?
what we don't know is the total number of cranks "B" (or cranks "A") sold. Cranks "B" could have just sold 800 pairs, giving it a faulty product ratio of 20/800 = 2.5%, whilst cranks "A" actually had a ratio of 50/10,000 = 0.5%. These numbers are of course made up, but it demonstrates the issue with silent evidence. you only hear about bad reviews most of the time, but very little people take into consideration how many faulty products there are compared to how many were sold.
secondly, people very seldom rave mad about how good a product like cranks are. it's like I.T. and electricity - you don't even think about it when it works perfectly without flaws, you just use it. nobody (well, not many) goes on the internet to tell eveyone that a product WORKS JUST AS IT IS EXPECTED!!!!1111!!ELEVENONEONE!
thirdly, we often dont' put enough emphasis on warranty service when we choose a new product - but if you look at the track record (not just the advertised) of customer services/warranty, some companies are well loved because they often go beyond what's stipulated in their terms and conditions about warrantying stuff.
now i'm not trying to argue with you at all - blindly arguing in favour of odyssey with my points above would just make me an ody fanboy, since i don't have their sales figures vs other companies either; so who knows what kind of faulty product ratio each company has? all i'm trying to point out is that we're quite likely to think we're more "in the know" about how well a product performs than we actually are.
what i do know, however, is that ody's been one of the companies that REALLY take care of their warranty and replace their products. If i was to buy new products with some non conventional design that haven't proven themselves in the bmx mass market, i'm more inclined towards buying their stuff, if i know that they'll take care of me should the product turns out crappy.
if WTP have similar attitudes / track record towards warranty etc, i'd also be happy to buy from them.
-
Yeah I get that. That's why one of the first things I said was "bike parts break" I haven't compared odyssey cranks to cranks that are designed by the wemakethings guys, or anyone else for that matter anyways. I've just pointed out that odyssey cranks in the past have had a bad reputation in general, not compared to other companies. And quite frankly I couldnt care less about how good a warranty is. I'd rather not break my ankle when my cranks snap in the first place, so I will continue to invest in a new pair of cranks every year or so and avoid any gimmicky cranks.
-
You'd think the issues with the eclat cranks would have become apparent during prototype testing by their team riders.
-
secondly, people very seldom rave mad about how good a product like cranks are. it's like I.T. and electricity
Aint that the damn truth. I work for an event IT company, and when everything is working fine, nobody thanks us, but when the internet goes down somewhere people freak the hell out.
I feel like Odyssey get's the same wrap. Anytime anyone breaks an Odyssey product it's like they go right to the internet to complain about it instead of hitting up warranty. You end up with like 10 people breaking Odyssey cranks that all go online and complain and it makes other people think that they're shit, when there's probably an absolute shit ton of people like myself that have had no problems with Odyssey cranks. I've smashed the shit out of 1 pair of wombolts that I have and they're still kicking way better than my old rickety Primo Hollowbites.
I really wish that George could post Odysseys warranty/return rate on the wombolts/twombolts/thunderbolts line of cranks. I bet that it's pretty damn low.
-
Bike parts break.
That's why one of the first things I said was "bike parts break"
Hey guys, bike parts break. That includes the ones you design G.
-
remember the 'oversized' 7/8 or 22mm profile SS styled wtp cranks from around 2000-2004, which broke so frequently that even magazine reviewers acknowledged it...
my first time being scammed by a bmxer was for a set of those cranks.
the 'design' was fine - 48 spline/beefy tubular arms - but they made them wrong/not strong enough.
wombolts were also 'made wrong' until things got sorted out. Things actually got sorted out, over a relatively short period.
now wtp/eclat cranks went back to a decades-old spline system and not only didn't fix it, but made it worse by splitting the spindle...
odyssey at least kept fixing/upgrading theirs until they had something that works. They weren't just trying to sell a worsened old system, they were developing a new [arguably] improved one...
-
i finger my bum, in the shower.
-
1. Our return rate on cranks was never higher than 10% at the very most. The suggestion that ALL the first gen Wombolts were "made wrong" is ridiculous, there are still first gen cranks out there being used now and we will STILL warranty them if they ever do break because that's what "lifetime" warranty means.
2. We sell/sold a shit-ton of cranks, but have never needed to do a product recall.
My main reason for making this thread was to inform any owners of these cranks that they were being recalled by the manufacturer. And given that even the manufacturer isnt trying to defend the design it seems weird anyone on here unrelated to them would really be that arsed about trying to defend it...
:)
G.
-
Can you hazard an approximate numerical value for "a shit ton"? Only for my own or others curiosity.
-
Can you hazard an approximate numerical value for "a shit ton"? Only for my own or others curiosity.
a metric shit ton is about a ball-hair more than a fuckload.
i hope that helps.
-
pretty tacky to be chatting shit about other companies...
nobody is a genius like you G
1. Our return rate on cranks was never higher than 10% at the very most. The suggestion that ALL the first gen Wombolts were "made wrong" is ridiculous, there are still first gen cranks out there being used now and we will STILL warranty them if they ever do break because that's what "lifetime" warranty means.
2. We sell/sold a shit-ton of cranks, but have never needed to do a product recall.
My main reason for making this thread was to inform any owners of these cranks that they were being recalled by the manufacturer. And given that even the manufacturer isnt trying to defend the design it seems weird anyone on here unrelated to them would really be that arsed about trying to defend it...
:)
G.
-
a metric shit ton is about a ball-hair more than a fuckload.
i hope that helps.
It does! I had no idea that scrotum follicle made the difference in them producing a fuckload or not. Wish I had some to contribute.
-
I don't see the problem. This is a public forum, anyone could rebut him if they had a leg to stand on
-
pretty tacky to be chatting shit about other companies...
nobody is a genius like you G
1. Our return rate on cranks was never higher than 10% at the very most. The suggestion that ALL the first gen Wombolts were "made wrong" is ridiculous, there are still first gen cranks out there being used now and we will STILL warranty them if they ever do break because that's what "lifetime" warranty means.
2. We sell/sold a shit-ton of cranks, but have never needed to do a product recall.
My main reason for making this thread was to inform any owners of these cranks that they were being recalled by the manufacturer. And given that even the manufacturer isnt trying to defend the design it seems weird anyone on here unrelated to them would really be that arsed about trying to defend it...
:)
G.
I'm a pretty tacky guy and inclined to say "fuck it" a little more these days. I still hold my tongue 95% of the time, still haven't called out the *** forks that did so scarily badly in the fatigue tests, etc, but when there is a public recall on something and this website is essentially an irrelevant back-water of the internet it doesn't seem that important...
:)
G.
-
Is it weird that I kind of like the fact that Bikeguide is kind of becoming the hidden secret of bmx again.
We need some more shit talking like the good ol days. Where's Philip and Jasper when we need them?
-
1. Our return rate on cranks was never higher than 10% at the very most. The suggestion that ALL the first gen Wombolts were "made wrong" is ridiculous, there are still first gen cranks out there being used now and we will STILL warranty them if they ever do break because that's what "lifetime" warranty means.
2. We sell/sold a shit-ton of cranks, but have never needed to do a product recall.
My main reason for making this thread was to inform any owners of these cranks that they were being recalled by the manufacturer. And given that even the manufacturer isnt trying to defend the design it seems weird anyone on here unrelated to them would really be that arsed about trying to defend it...
:)
G.
Isn't 10% a high return rate? Obvs not recall levels but hardly a shining example.
I'm also dubious that the main reason you made the thread was concern for the owners of these cranks but if you say so.
-
i think that part of teh issue with the older style wombolts is the climate in which they were released. it wasnt cultifornia 4 pegs smash your bike off a ledge for 3 hours then go blast a 20 stair on pitta bread tyres. wombolts came out when it mandatory to include a weight as a part of your bike check, and i think the design suffered due to having to be released in a market where if a product was too heavy it just wouldnt sell.
odyssey have always been sweet about their warranties, and subsequently revised the cranks beefing them up considerably. ive not heard of any thunderbolts break (although maybe the market share suffered as a result of the earlier models breaking so theres less out there to break). basically any steel crank is going to break at somepoint, unless you run powerbites instead (and even then they break sometimes if you put them on wrong or your xLaZx), at least odyssey hook you up if theirs do break which is one of the main reasons why i like to support them, even if theyre totally not cool in the bmx nerd scene anymore
-
This is a public forum, anyone could rebut him if they had a leg to stand on
this is why I built my ratchet up to an alienation rim
-
heh I'd forgotten about that
-
Hahaha because no one ever broke any thing gsport or odyssey. Bike parts break. Get off yer high horse Georgie. I don't think I could name one of my friends that had wombolts or twombolts that didn't break them.
It's a good thing we aren't friends then. My OG first batch wombolts are still getting used daily.
-
I had a pair of very old un broken Twombolts. They didnt stay on my bike super long because of that stupid built in adapter. I understand the why behind it, but holy shit did it ever fuck with my crank/chain alignment. My left crankarm was twice as far from the CS as the right. Also, ankle bite. I couldnt ride for a while because I kept goring my shit on those things.
-
I had a pair of very old un broken Twombolts. They didnt stay on my bike super long because of that stupid built in adapter. I understand the why behind it, but holy shit did it ever fuck with my crank/chain alignment. My left crankarm was twice as far from the CS as the right. Also, ankle bite. I couldnt ride for a while because I kept goring my shit on those things.
Weird. Especially about the ankle bite, Wom/Twom/Thunderbolts all have amazing ankle clearance compared to other cranks, it was a major design consideration.
:)
G.
-
USER ERROR BUD
-
When I switched from HollowBites to Twombolts, my ankles thought they died and went to heaven. No more ankle bite!
-
How much heavier are current Thunderbolts than v1 Wombolts? They were beefed up in comparison?
I still have the original Wombolts and can remember thinking they were scary light taking them out of the box, they're also to this day not broken.
-
NOT USER ERROR BUD
-
Yeah, I was trying to figure out exactly what problem those slits would cause.... and I'm guessing "torsion." The force of cranks on a spindle is to twist the spindle in opposite directions. . . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_(mechanics) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_(mechanics))
(http://eclatbmx.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Eclat_aeon_011.jpg)
Or maybe axial load on the pedal boss area, especially if many spacers are used in crank spindle. I think this issue could simply be avoided if those slits were 90 degrees rotated (i don't know if i explained that properly)
I truely think that's a fine concept to get more tightness and get rid of wobbling, at least for the half of spindle boss of the crank.
-
for anyone who bought these cranks, email eclat or your local distro and they should send you a replacement non slotted axle
-
I didn't buy them or anything, I still have my old Powerbites, I just had a discussion with someone and wanted to check what exactly was the problem of those complete bikes.
I just checked other photos of those cranks and noticed they have three slits, not two as i thought, so rotating the slits 90 degrees won't really solve the issue. That photo above didn't show them clearly.
-
yeah its a silly design, doesnt even make removing the cranks any easier either, still had to belt them with a mallet to get em off
-
Thats the case with all cranks when they are still new. Those arms look nice with that transparent green though.
-
yeah but the whole point of the design was to make it easier to get the arms off as soon as the spindle bolt is loosened
-
It seems that it is the case, but only for half the splines lenght. Isn't the goal to push the spindle and spindle boss splines against each others to increase grip using some sort of conic stuff inside? I might be quick to conclude.
-
yeah pretty much
i drew a paint diagram to show it just cos paint
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/benyc/eclat%20cranks%20how_zpslqwlvaul.png)
instead of screwing into the spindle itself, the end bolt (blue) screws into the wedge shaped bit (pink). the inside of teh axle is hollow, and tapers in slightly towards the end where the bolt lives. cos of the slots, when you tighten the end bolt the wedge is pulled towards it which splays the ends of the spindle out slightly ensuring a tighter fit on the arm, eliminating any wobble.
im sure i read back when they first promoed the design on like the merged or somewhere that the whole point of this was so the arm could slide on and off easily when the wedge was loose but would stay tight when done up.
found the article
http://themerged.com/eclat-aeon-crank/ (http://themerged.com/eclat-aeon-crank/)
These are a 2pc 22mm crank using our new ESS (Expanding Spline System) making them incredibly strong, yet super easy to install and remove. No more taking a hammer to your cranks ever again.
if the tolerances are small enough for the arm to be a really tight fit in the first place, then the wedge is pointless anyway, and just puts additional stress on the inside of the spindle. additionally, over time i reckon the constant pressure being applied to the inside of the axle would cause it to deform slightly so that it wouldnt "spring" back as easily so youd still probs need to give it a bit of clout. who knows cos it seems the cranks didnt last long enough to put that to the test
-
Yeah that paint shows it clearly now.
So to increase gripping, the bolt needs to be tight enough, and to avoid the end of spindle to expand (wich theorically may result the spindle boss to deform too, but this need to be revised considering if the materials used can withstand the tolerences to spring back or not) it desnt need to be overtightened. plus the pressure on the bolt must be constantly in check.
Looks like a new concept that needs maintenance