Bikeguide.org - Bike maintenance for BMX'ers
The Street => The Bike Shop => Topic started by: TpeHep on March 30, 2015, 04:46:02 AM
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My question is mostly about allowed precision error on a new BMX frame,
and from a repair shop point of view - what amount of rear triangle
displacement is required to tell that frame is untrue and needs fixing?
Some background story:
Last year I've ordered a custom frame from SBC, it was around october i think.
I was really happy to see it arrive a bit earlier than they have estimated,
just before my birthday. It looked truly great, and while looking it around,
i've looked at rear triangle alignment as a joke (as if it could be wrong on a new frame,
especially SBC one, you know). I can't really forward changes in my face expression
as recognition of assymetry there was becoming more clear with every second.
But, remembering where i ordered the frame, i was more likely to believe
my eyes are wrong, so i did pretty much every validation possible, triple-checking
everything, with things you can find around the house, and all methods kept telling me frame
is untrue.
There were some other minor issues too, which are outside of question topic.
Nothing to do, i had to mail SBC, giving a detailed description of a problem
i've seeing. After few mails (first they suggested to build frame and see how it works,
despite obvious flaws) i was asked to send frame back.
So i've sent frame back, asking to let me know how it is. After some month of silence,
i write again to check how it goes, and get a reply they have received it long ago
and there was nothing wrong with the frame.
What?..
Then I've got one of pics i made before to describe an issue, and created an animation out of it,
so that issue is obvious, and sent another mail with some flames.
After that it turned out their employee actually fixed frame before reporting
everything is ok with it. I'm not really sure how you can fix such a problem, tbh.
Well, ok, no problem.
By some wild chance frame arrived back after checking on friday 13th..
And guess what, not much has changed!
This order, i believe, is not less legendary than SBC itself.
I've mailed SBC again but didn't get another reply in two weeks, so i think they
don't want to talk to me anymore about this.
I don't have any problems with SBC whatsoever, they sure can work how they want,
it's more of my problem that i like or don't like their work. This story might
be valuable for people considering to order something there, though. But keep in mind that
my experience with SBC sure may vary from other's, and this is perhaps a somehow outstanding issue.
Maybe other Standard owners have seen similar issue?
Also, as i see it, no allowed precision errors are settled on during custom
frame build arrangement, so objections are not tecnically valid.
So i'm asking this question here just for myself, to know if
my overview of the frame i received is reasonable/valid. It could
be that most vendors do frames like this and it's totally normal.
My current frame, which is used for a while, and other frame i have
do not show such an issue when tested using same technique.
What are general allowed precision errors on geometry?
For example:
Headtube 74.5 degrees (+/- 0.05 degrees)
Rear dropouts: (+/- 1mm)
Is displacement shown on animation enough to consider (new/used) frame untrue?
Animation i made before sending frame back
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a8QxR5gk26E/VRkkXqWjJiI/AAAAAAAAAEc/OVrk8DAzayU/w125-h681-no/gif_1.gif)
After receiving frame back
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jPyNRQs4rDE/VRkkXlGSUXI/AAAAAAAAAEg/4uaKsKYx1W4/w380-h480-no/gif_2.gif)
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Do any local shops have a Park Tool alignment guide?
http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/frame-alignment
There's always the string technique too:
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Site%20Contents/How_To_Do_It/FrameSetPrep_5_StringingFrameSet.htm
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With ANY welded structure there will be some movement. Setting a reasonable tolerance on this is open to debate and will obviously depend on the application.
Expecting a head angle to be within 0.05degrees is crazy. +/-0.25 of a degree is completely reasonable and most frame builders should have no problem hitting this.
For the straightness of the back end, I would expect most aftermarket frames to easily come within 2mm of true.
I have no idea how you made your animation and how accurate it is, but it looks pretty dramatically bent to me (though this could possible be achieved by camera angles etc) certainly a dropouts thickness or more out of true which I personally would not consider acceptable and I wouldn't be prepared to ride (not due to safety issues but just because it would mess up my riding).
I would echo the recommendation that you find a bike shop (or builder) that can check it for you and put a definite number on the flaw and go from there.
Good luck, I hope you get it resolved satisfactorily.
:)
G.
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Do any local shops have a Park Tool alignment guide?
http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/frame-alignment
There's always the string technique too:
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Site%20Contents/How_To_Do_It/FrameSetPrep_5_StringingFrameSet.htm
Nice links, thank you!
With ANY welded structure there will be some movement. Setting a reasonable tolerance on this is open to debate and will obviously depend on the application.
Expecting a head angle to be within 0.05degrees is crazy. +/-0.25 of a degree is completely reasonable and most frame builders should have no problem hitting this.
For the straightness of the back end, I would expect most aftermarket frames to easily come within 2mm of true.
I have no idea how you made your animation and how accurate it is, but it looks pretty dramatically bent to me (though this could possible be achieved by camera angles etc) certainly a dropouts thickness or more out of true which I personally would not consider acceptable and I wouldn't be prepared to ride (not due to safety issues but just because it would mess up my riding).
I would echo the recommendation that you find a bike shop (or builder) that can check it for you and put a definite number on the flaw and go from there.
Good luck, I hope you get it resolved satisfactorily.
:)
G.
I sure agree that visual displacement may be a result of camera lens distortion, but at the same time i find it rather challenging to give a visual representation of such an issue using photo. This animation is best i could come up with. I can certainly see same issue with eye or other validation tech and agree this is not a best way to measure something.
Animation is a picture and it's mirror image.. first animation is made from photo (camera1), other from a video screenshot (camera2).
For second animation, i just made a video holding camera straight above frame, then took a screenshot
from a video, catching a point where seat tube is vertically aligned with a headtube (you can see HT gyro tabs under seat tube, they are symmetric and stand out for same distance, i've checked). An animation is made from that screenshot and it's mirror.
This means that actual displacement is visual displacement divided by 2. Dropouts are 6mm think,
meaning it's about +3mm displacement to one side (and -3mm on mirror, creating total visual displacement of ~6mm on animation, which is about dropout thinkness).
I'm not sure how to interpret ".. easily come within 2mm of true ..". Is this +/- 1mm from perfect or +/- 2mm from perfect? I'd say +/- 1mm from perfect is reasonable. Angle precision value of 0.05 was just for example, and perhaps not a very good one. +/- 0.2 seems reasonable.
I was also thinking if some bike shop could measure it for me, but i doubt i can find bike shops having such tools around. Perhaps i'll try to find a way to get a definitive measurement anyway.
I would say rear end is displaced too, but keeping in mind SBC authority is over 9000, i rather prefer to doubt my views.
Anyway, thank you for valuable advice! And for great hubs too, i'm sure you recognize Homer hub there :)
I should also note frame seems great otherwise.. And here's another photo, where you can see
changing hub to other side has no effect and wheel would be displaced against front triangle.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SRHPc6ZqEvQ/VRlJ48kHiUI/AAAAAAAAAE8/3ZQsSHWPdSA/w476-h419-no/another.png)
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Just to add a little to this discussion - I had an issue with my custom standard frame a few years back, I wanted a longer rear end than normal and specified how long it should be - original frame was at leat half an inch out. Took a few emails and I paid the return postage but eventually I got a frame I was happy with.
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(http://www.troll.me/images/crazy-eyes/looks-fine-to-me.jpg)
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Well rep[ort back, I hope it all works Well because I was just speaking with JEss @ SBC for the past few weeks about getting a custom frame done.
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Not acceptable. BMX is cheap but you want what you pay for.
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I'd return it for a refund and go elsewhere. It's sad that something that crooked came from SBC.
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lairdframe.com
Sucks to pay so much and have stuff not be close to perfect.
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Jess is rad. After my last bike got stolen I asked them if they had any rejects or whatever sitting around for a discount. They just hooked me up with what I wanted.
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To clarify.
I would expect pretty much any aftermarket frame to be within 2mm of true (maximum). ie. each dropout within 2mm of where it should be. 1mm or less would be more acceptable for a higher end frame, and I personally probably wouldn't be very happy even at the top end of this. Anything over 2mm is very bad indeed and 3mm is taking the piss.
I would also suggest that you check the dropout spacing (should be 110mm) and parallel-ness (just measure spacing at the front and back, should be within 0.2mm or less I would hope) and also check to see whether the frame is twisted (put a wheel in the back and see how well it lines up with the seat tube).
With custom frames the jig needs to be adjusted to the buyers preference so there is always room for something to move by accident (a proper production jig would be tack welded in place to prevent this) OR it is possible that the frame just moved a lot when fully welded. Either way, any reputable builder should be keen to set things straight and fix it for you as long as you are understanding and patient.
I hope this helps.
:)
G.
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Well, thank you everyone for your input :) It's sure good to see i'm not completely insane yet.
I wasn't really looking at further interaction with Standard, as they
are already seriously compromised - by the fact that they could
come up with something like this alone, not to mention inability to
detect such a displacement. And sending me same crap twice.
Hopefully i will find someone properly capable later on..
But, keeping in mind previously entertaining experience, i though
i'd drop an extra email there. I've made a video with a string check
and linked it in email.
http://youtu.be/iWaXnKFB2Eg (http://youtu.be/iWaXnKFB2Eg)
During few following emails, Jess suggests that
".. It fit in our alignment table perfect, it may "look" off, but it is true and that is what matters. Please Build this thing up and ride it. .."
and
".. The alignment is perfect and checked often for accuracy. Build the bike, please. .."
and
".. I saw the video. Your video not tell me that the bike is not able to be ridden. .."
with spelling errors corrected.
Well rep[ort back, I hope it all works Well because I was just speaking with JEss @ SBC for the past few weeks about getting a custom frame done.
Due to mentioned above, i'm afraid i cannot recommend to build custom frames at Standard at this time.
This might still resolve somehow, and i will be honest to update accordingly, but for now - if you want to make something there, you probably should be prepared to deal with issues and wait for a year or so.
And make sure to ask about for allowed precision error :)
Custom fork they made seems ok, btw. You don't simply find someone to make a fork you ask for.
It could use a better steerer, though, but that's my opinion.
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Lairdframe dot com
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http://www.pedaldrivencycles.com/
FIFY ;)
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Either way, really.
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so they fixed it and now you wont ride it?
In all seriousness, even if it is off by a hair still, why does it matter? just ride the thing and destroy!
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. . .
I would echo the recommendation that you find a bike shop (or builder) that can check it for you and put a definite number on the flaw and go from there.
I agree. You need to measure it with precision, not take photos of it--because all photos will be distorted based on perspective/lens etc.
Plus, it's important to measure in the spots where it counts (where your wheel is, where the cranks are, etc.) A frame does not have to be mirror image perfect if all the critical points are in fact in alignment. When he says it fit the jig perfectly, that's what it means, right? (I don't know, I've never built a frame myself).
Although I clearly understand the need for the utmost precision on an expensive custom frame, I also think a key question is whether it affects the ride or the visual aesthetics. If the issue is undetectable by normal visual inspection AND undetectable while riding . . . . . . . well, whatever.....
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Or just put it together and ride the piss out of it....
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Just to clarify..
so they fixed it and now you wont ride it?
In all seriousness, even if it is off by a hair still, why does it matter? just ride the thing and destroy!
No, the frame is not fixed.
. . .
I would echo the recommendation that you find a bike shop (or builder) that can check it for you and put a definite number on the flaw and go from there.
I agree. You need to measure it with precision, not take photos of it--because all photos will be distorted based on perspective/lens etc.
Plus, it's important to measure in the spots where it counts (where your wheel is, where the cranks are, etc.) A frame does not have to be mirror image perfect if all the critical points are in fact in alignment. When he says it fit the jig perfectly, that's what it means, right? (I don't know, I've never built a frame myself).
Although I clearly understand the need for the utmost precision on an expensive custom frame, I also think a key question is whether it affects the ride or the visual aesthetics. If the issue is undetectable by normal visual inspection AND undetectable while riding . . . . . . . well, whatever.....
Sure it won't be perfect, but the issue is quite detectable by normal visual inspection - that's how i detected it in first place. Images are given for visual representation rather than to define amount of distortion. And somehow, despite different
angles of camera, distortion is always the same, to same direction, so i wouldn't blame lens.
String on linked video is attached to spots that count. And i'm not worried much about aesthetical part.
If i can find a shop that could give precision numbers, i will sure ask them to check this, just for interest.
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Yeah measure it at a professional bike shop and send it back if the data shows that it is off. You must have some customers rights office in the US that can back you right?
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If anyone has doubts, i have visited largest bike store in town to have some more fun out of this story
(we have only one big bicycle store here, they are an authorized dealer for Specialized)
on a way to work this morning. They also have a fine repair shop, but as i suspected they
do not have a validation device to give explicit numbers (3rd world here).
It took about 3 seconds of visual frame inspection for their main bike mechanic (20+ years exp)
to say frame is definitely untrue and to correctly determine displacement direction at the same time
(which is about 1/8" towards RHD). Suggesting that precision validation is not needed here,
as it's too obvious..
I'm not trying to prove anything here though, you should make your own judgement.
And i have no intention to pursuit (or how do you call it) SBC, demand something there, etc.
They can work how they see fit, and i can't force them to work properly
if they don't want to. Not to mention their authority is compromised -
now i can't be sure they don't weld as bad as they align, don't confuse
tubing, etc. They might still come up with something, but it
seems highly unlikely at this point.
Good reason to post was that i actually find initial question about reasonable
precision error from reputable vendor rather interesting, as i don't see lots of such
info around. At same time there surely are people getting custom frames around,
so this topic might be of interest for others too. Another good question is if such could be fixed, in theory?
Seems quite unrealistic to me..
Could i even offer to fix such if i was a vendor?
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If anyone has doubts, i have visited largest bike store in town to have some more fun out of this story
(we have only one big bicycle store here, they are an authorized dealer for Specialized)
on a way to work this morning. They also have a fine repair shop, but as i suspected they
do not have a validation device to give explicit numbers (3rd world here).
It took about 3 seconds of visual frame inspection for their main bike mechanic (20+ years exp)
to say frame is definitely untrue and to correctly determine displacement direction at the same time
(which is about 1/8" towards RHD). Suggesting that precision validation is not needed here,
as it's too obvious..
I'm not trying to prove anything here though, you should make your own judgement.
And i have no intention to pursuit (or how do you call it) SBC, demand something there, etc.
They can work how they see fit, and i can't force them to work properly
if they don't want to. Not to mention their authority is compromised -
now i can't be sure they don't weld as bad as they align, don't confuse
tubing, etc. They might still come up with something, but it
seems highly unlikely at this point.
Good reason to post was that i actually find initial question about reasonable
precision error from reputable vendor rather interesting, as i don't see lots of such
info around. At same time there surely are people getting custom frames around,
so this topic might be of interest for others too. Another good question is if such could be fixed, in theory?
Seems quite unrealistic to me..
Could i even offer to fix such if i was a vendor?
I dont think you are wrong not to want to ride it. Many years ago I had a frame which I bent the back end of very significantly (through riding) but at the time had no money to replace it so kept riding it. When I did finally manage to replace it, I found that I had got used to correcting for the bend and it took a long time to get myself straight on the bike again.
Is it fixable?
Yes. Pretty much anything is fixable, whether it would be wise/cost-effective/worthwhile to fix is another matter. If everything was cut correctly and it was tacked up straight etc, and the issue is just that the bend on one side straightened out a little then it can be cold-set back to straight relatively easily and it will be fine. If however it was made bent, then it is less likely.
IF it is an option to just return it and get your money back, then that is probably the easiest thing all round, but it is a CUSTOM frame right? So that could potentially leave them with a frame in some wacky geometry that they cant shift and a big loss so they may dig their heels in and try not to do that; if on the other hand it is pretty vanilla; then if as they claim it is straight they should have no problem selling it on. Did you pay by credit card or paypal? That might be an option.
:)
G.
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Customer relations is everything. I believe they should repair, refund, or replace it.
It's enough to put me off buying anything off Standard.
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BMX is full of bad parts.
You might as well quit now and save yourself the hassle.
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everyone saying just to suck it up or "its just bmx anyway" is blowing my mind. There is not any excuse for parts being way off spec in general, but the fact that it is custom and cost him at an absolute minimum $550 makes it way worse. If you spent that much money on a TV and it only played in black and white, would you just shrug it off? Of course not. Some of you make it sound like he's complaining about a cup of lemonade being too watered down from a 1st grader's drink stand in the summer time. You guys must have some nice jobs to be able to drop $550 and have it not matter what you get in return. I love Standard and I think Rick is super rad, so it bums me out to hear this story. Of course there is always two sides to a story and the truth most often lies in the middle...
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Answer these question:
Did Standard fix it or not?
Have you checked the alignment?
Have you built it up completely?
How does this make you feel?
Will this be the straw that broke BMX's back?
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What sort of state was the shipped box in when you received it?
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An 1/8 ain't shit
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To expand on what others have said, try looking for local road frame builders.
Its not uncommon for the heat from welding to pull an otherwise straight frame out of true, and its also not uncommon for high end custom road bikes to be aligned after being welded. One of them might be able to help you out. No idea how much it costs, but explain your situation and maybe you will get an empathy deal, a lot of road builders are really passionate and cool people.
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The only thing I have a problem with is standard getting the frame back and them saying it's straight/true or fine or whatever. With just that little explanation?
What are their (standard 'byke' co) tolerances/specs on this exact situation?
It's the first sentence in the OP!... how does TpeHep not have a direct answer to this question from Standard themselves?!
Am I wrong in thinking you really don't need a professional frame builder to use measuring tools coupled with a flat counter top? Or something that basic DIY, to properly 'prove' your point? Not a damn camera ALONE. You need both the picture/video with the PROPER MEASUREMENTS IN the said pic/vid, a proficient professional confident in their skills wouldn't hurt though. (any good welder? 'engineer'? machinist even?) Do these pictures exist we just haven't seen them?
Was a refund in any form discussed? (if the frame is so fine to them they should be able to re-sell?)
Since you're 'stuck' with it have you ridden it?
Did I miss where you are from?
An 1/8 ain't shit
We still don't have a REAL measurement, that was visual. and 1/8" = 3.18 mm which is out of G's suggested 'specs'. Is that what you would expect for a ~$600 welded frame? be it on your bicycle? Or what if it was a motorcycle frame? I don't have enough experience building this type of stuff but I will certainly ask those I know who do. How about if he was professionally racing BMX? When does it become acceptable?
IMHO it seems acceptable for a bicycle... but I could go either way since we are supposed to be talking about some of the finest welded 4130 in BMX. Not just any bicycle...
$$$.$$
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You might wanna pick your vagina up off the floor and try out the frame.
.2, bud, .2.
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The only thing I have a problem with is standard getting the frame back and them saying it's straight/true or fine or whatever. With just that little explanation?
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This bothers me most of all as well (especially due to fact Rick suggested to check frame alignment in person), and is also main reason for the topic - which was intended to clarify things in first place, not to complain about Standard (i don't like doing that really).
They didn't give me their allowed dimension error when i asked (nor other direct answers for my questions). Generic/common amount of allowed precision error still remains shady too.
Pics are just for illustration, you can see issue with bare eye, there's not much point in precision measuring, it's obvious frame isn't very useful. I was certainly considering building some validation device, but i have work and other stuff to do. Box was fine both of times, needless to say.
Thanks to everyone who bothered to post so far - as it looks that most of reasoned opinions (both here and from locals) suggest this is unacceptable, i've mailed frame back for second time few days ago and am waiting for some possibly interesting news now..
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The only thing I have a problem with is standard getting the frame back and them saying it's straight/true or fine or whatever. With just that little explanation?
...
This bothers me most of all as well (especially due to fact Rick suggested to check frame alignment in person), and is also main reason for the topic - which was intended to clarify things in first place, not to complain about Standard (i don't like doing that really).
They didn't give me their allowed dimension error when i asked (nor other direct answers for my questions). Generic/common amount of allowed precision error still remains shady too.
Pics are just for illustration, you can see issue with bare eye, there's not much point in precision measuring, it's obvious frame isn't very useful. I was certainly considering building some validation device, but i have work and other stuff to do. Box was fine both of times, needless to say.
Thanks to everyone who bothered to post so far - as it looks that most of reasoned opinions (both here and from locals) suggest this is unacceptable, i've mailed frame back for second time few days ago and am waiting for some possibly interesting news now..
If the frame actually measures out of spec (not an eyeball/camera measurement)... I would hope that the interesting news is a refund.
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should have gotten an STA...I mean a Sunday frame
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(https://igcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t51.2885-15/11282806_901752049892428_1439138918_n.jpg)
This bitch right here is dialed, all around. I got the frame completely raw, no clear coats or anything. You can really get a good look at craftmanship and quality. I'm no welder geek, but the welds do look really clean. But I am a bike geek. And I can tell you I eyeballed every single part of this frame, inside and out. It is dialed.
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everyone saying just to suck it up or "its just bmx anyway" is blowing my mind. There is not any excuse for parts being way off spec in general, but the fact that it is custom and cost him at an absolute minimum $550 makes it way worse. If you spent that much money on a TV and it only played in black and white, would you just shrug it off? Of course not. Some of you make it sound like he's complaining about a cup of lemonade being too watered down from a 1st grader's drink stand in the summer time. You guys must have some nice jobs to be able to drop $550 and have it not matter what you get in return. I love Standard and I think Rick is super rad, so it bums me out to hear this story. Of course there is always two sides to a story and the truth most often lies in the middle...
"So let us not casteth judgmenteth unless thall shalt heareth both sides of the story."
Ruben 41:30, Church of Joe Rich of Ramperday Saints
Peace be with you
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If I somehow continue to not portray the destitute BMX scum bag, I definitely want another standard. Already miss it riding this barcode.
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I loved my Barcode in a special way. I just swapped out frames to the STA a few weeks ago. After not living in Iowa for almost 10 years I really just felt the urge to get an STA when I moved back home. So I did, but with a few mods.
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so how long has the op not been riding while waiting to get a frame repaired that is maybe 1 degree off? i can't see any serious rider taking off that amount of time due to something they'd never even feel. I mean just look at how most riders have their back wheels in the dropouts: cocked to one side for chain tension or just bc it always tightens up that way. I mean really now....
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so how long has the op not been riding while waiting to get a frame repaired that is maybe 1 degree off? i can't see any serious rider taking off that amount of time due to something they'd never even feel. I mean just look at how most riders have their back wheels in the dropouts: cocked to one side for chain tension or just bc it always tightens up that way. I mean really now....
That seems like a harsh attitude. OP hasn't posted in nearly a month so maybe it all got sorted, but having ridden a frame that was very bent in the past for an extended period I can attest that you definitely feel it and if you pay top dollar for it you WOULD be pissed.
:)
G.
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so how long has the op not been riding while waiting to get a frame repaired that is maybe 1 degree off? i can't see any serious rider taking off that amount of time due to something they'd never even feel. I mean just look at how most riders have their back wheels in the dropouts: cocked to one side for chain tension or just bc it always tightens up that way. I mean really now....
That seems like a harsh attitude. OP hasn't posted in nearly a month so maybe it all got sorted, but having ridden a frame that was very bent in the past for an extended period I can attest that you definitely feel it and if you pay top dollar for it you WOULD be pissed.
:)
G.
hmmm i can see your point G, and i have read your analysis on frame geo extensively through each and every one of your tech articles. But wasnt it you who was saying that NO frame is perfect and is in fact allowed a certain degree of variance in each and every angle and dimension?
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Well.. nothing interesting happened so far so no good reason to post. I've sent frame back on April, 22nd, and didn't hear
from Standard in like 3 weeks since then.. they didn't reply to couple of mails i sent them by that time. Last week I've asked my friend to write them, so that email is different, initially asking for prices and then telling hello from myself and suggesting to talk via customer service and such. They were very fast to respond with prices, took a few minutes.
After that Jess mailed saying they have no news to share with me. I've dropped another mail today, no reply.
It's not like i can't ride, my bike is fully set up with current frame which i ride for about 5-7 years, there's no problems with it.
And there's always wife's bike to take for a spin too :D
Frame welds did appear really fine to me as well, and frame would be great indeed, if only put together properly..
Pretty much every BMX frame I've seen had some minor thing here or there, it can't be perfect, but this one is just too much.
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Just ride it attitude is all good when you haven't forked out and waited for a custom frame. I've got a custom that has crooked as fuck break mounts. Sent it back, then got it back with brakes crooked as fuck in the other direction. Still, at least I could ride that brakeless. I was pissed, they were pissed. We both lost money and time. Sucks that both parties lose out but I did everything that was expected of me, paid punctually and waited (for several months longer than quoted). They fucked up by not controlling the quality of their product. It is their fuck up.
I don't get why people are defending the builder and having a go at the customer.
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so how long has the op not been riding while waiting to get a frame repaired that is maybe 1 degree off? i can't see any serious rider taking off that amount of time due to something they'd never even feel. I mean just look at how most riders have their back wheels in the dropouts: cocked to one side for chain tension or just bc it always tightens up that way. I mean really now....
That seems like a harsh attitude. OP hasn't posted in nearly a month so maybe it all got sorted, but having ridden a frame that was very bent in the past for an extended period I can attest that you definitely feel it and if you pay top dollar for it you WOULD be pissed.
:)
G.
hmmm i can see your point G, and i have read your analysis on frame geo extensively through each and every one of your tech articles. But wasnt it you who was saying that NO frame is perfect and is in fact allowed a certain degree of variance in each and every angle and dimension?
Yes. But...
There has to be a limit to the acceptable variation. If you can "eyeball" a frame and it looks obviously bent or twisted then it is probably out by more than the 0.25 or 0.5 of a millimeter that would be "reasonable" for a high end frame. Its amazing how many people DO ride around on bent/twisted frames, look around a skatepark and you will often see one or two, and when those riders replace them with new straight ones they will often need a little while to adjust, which can be very frustrating. But if you are paying top dollar you shouldn't have to accept it feeling like a hammered old beater.
:)
G.
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So.. if you excuse me for raising this bit old topic to keep things fair - a new replacement frame from Standard has arrived last week,
taking a total of 11 months to receive - I've made an order around October 2014. Never got any explanation or detail on the issue from SBC. Anyway, replacement frame appears to be done properly this time and doesn't show any signs of misalignment anywhere.
Only thing i could find is that one of the dropouts was somewhat bent to inside (towards hub axle center), enough for axle not to fit - while this is not an issue anymore, as I've bent it back using a wrench - it suggests dropouts are not heat treated there, if anyone cares.
Frame looks great now, but I'm not sure if i will have enough nerve to get something else from Standard :)
P.S.
Additional expenses for two return shipments and paying customs tax three times are about 250$, which is somewhat tolerable.
One might expect to get at least some extra sticker, which is not the case though..
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Post some pics of the build
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SZHR0ZatNhrvXtSOBLCiiqaHbahc64-sCYJfD6lVeFyKJr51zN8eOiDbjztZxzECn4Ycg7vLYwfIPtxy-24nSiEt_ZSAKtd5VA_dRWqu2GQkoVmf84zU1jalbDPHznps8ToNb6yvI6qrmSqPoOXvm1hEVSJhuWF1-09LuJexL1KiatkS8XV_fwSSo3_VgcxtdlGWsb5QRcC5U4osJgc86qT9irtbzYkdF0OUyY5ASg46CO1CJAHIhCHRvumKBAxY0LRqjpAiy1ZcBoy9I2LK0TlxoIZw8CW4QmPTOw0VkRGIQ39vqOMnFTrNY15REWoumLPpeRn0hHPqX6AMJpH6GU5qWypcGSwL_F2HAKoQ7YoyqS0zwsBbbOGf3sl9zvJEcjhSvKO-NCLnxYyewvdJ4_cqFvfJwVCvrh0P0dPy9RAulUQnP2rUs7lkEMMtU8a4N9-ztJ6KZ1RxS9oRrvN2PYI84og6iQ5MoBXFGdX0kU2Voz5tC3_MvNNpaRT7yTgYsTWzCApfzEX6NFDJCb3LMkUhbbb7ypX2o0WX_HwEpyU7_hptxSRsrzfcm-tUJv2C2ttfFtrDdrVmJWvq6rFQN6N9PPwg2Io=w1280-h720-no)
Took a while, here is.. custom Standard frame / fork (21.25" TT), 180mm SS cranks with GDH spindle, Solid needle HS, 48H G-Sport wheels, 30/10 gearing, ~ 26.5 lbs / 12kg
* Frame has USA BB to allow 60/22 bearing (22x44x12mm)
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You have a lot more patience than I do, 3 times smh.
On a side note, did the ss arms seem any kind of loose on the gdh spindle? I noticed they sell them with it, but thought the ss spindle was slightly larger than 22mm.
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damn thats hot. ive heard several horror stories about standard in the last few years, but i still need an STA
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You have a lot more patience than I do, 3 times smh.
On a side note, did the ss arms seem any kind of loose on the gdh spindle? I noticed they sell them with it, but thought the ss spindle was slightly larger than 22mm.
You are right, ss spindle is 7/8" which is ~22.22mm. While Profile suggests they fit fine, I think it's more about rust on ss arms making it seem a good fit. I could install cranks with bare hands, with a couple of mid-strength hits near end. Installation tool is still included with package (and even sprocket bolt this time). It appears that new alloy cone spacers are doing their job well, as I didn't feel any flex I was kind of expecting while riding.
As I was aware of sizing issue, I have initially planned to install this crankset using polymere adhesive - which is, by design, best applied to 'gaps' of about 0.1 mm between metal parts, and thus works good with worn cranks. This crankset, in contrast, appears to be almost like specifically made for adhesive install. I'll give it a week or two and then glue it in for good.
I've used adhesive on cranks before - nothing flexes or squeaks, very solid feel. I've removed bolts a while after install, and during few years of riding nothing
has moved at all, never had to put bolts back. Cranks are still on that frame, actually, along with sprocket :)
Obviously, one does not simply remove cranks in such scenario - heating to ~100C is required for disassembly (there are also permanent adhesives, watch out).
It's very likely that same effect is achieved by just getting thunderbolt cranks (then you also don't need to make a 15$ custom press-fit sprocket spacer for even chain tension). But, that's too easy and new thunderbolts don't fit into this mid-school concept :)
As for frame, it feels great, it's indeed a shame Standard messes up while being able to do great stuff. I still had to do some work with a file..
Frame appears to be symmetric this time, though I didn't take a very good look yet :) Dropouts, if anything, could be better, otherwise it's pretty much perfect.
Time will show if can hold together as well as it looks.