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The Street => The Lounge => Topic started by: ginger on March 04, 2015, 11:01:08 PM
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So some of you may know that we've got a couple of lads about to face the firing squad in Indonesia for trying to smuggle heroin through the country and into Australia. Big uproar here at the moment, even the conservative nutjobs are trying to save them. Doesn't look like it is going to change much now, I think the time for negotiating is over and our PM is such a twat that Indonesia will probably off these boys as a big "fuck you" to Abbott.
Anyway, thoughts on the death penalty? If you have any thoughts on this specific case, let me hear them.
This whole ordeal has changed my way of thinking about the death penalty...
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I have know knowledge of this case but it seems pretty primitive over drug smuggling.
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It's Indonesia, they're not exactly the frontrunner on the list of progressive societies.
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For something like this, no reason to off them.
For a child molester, rapist, murderer, etc, those fucked up humans need to be removed from the gene pool.
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Interesting topic here. Haven't heard too much about it. Will look into it in the morning.
However, my thoughts on the death penalty: Simply put, it doesn't work. Using the US as an example, recidivism rates are higher in states which do have the death penalty which goes to show it doesn't do much to deter crimes. Strictly speaking from statistics, I'd rather see it done away with completely and have more money dumped into rehabilitating (probably not the right word to use in this instance, but whatever) offenders, getting them further education and real life skills to help set them up for when their time has been served. From a more personal, emotional side of things, there are certain crimes where I'd love to see the death penalty. Things like sex offences, pedophiles, etc. I realize there are other factors there, and it's more of a psychiatric thing, but again, emotions cloud logic when I hear about that in the news.
More specific to this case, I see it on both sides of the coin. And I'm assuming extradition isn't applicable in this scenario? For the first viewpoint, the crime was committed in a foreign country, so in a way, the country has somewhat of a right to sentence them. However, I feel like it's always better to have their home country be the ones who administer the justice. However, it seems like there's not a shot in hell that's going to happen
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For a child molester, rapist, murderer, etc, those fucked up humans need to be removed from the gene pool.
Except none of those are genetic issues so removing from the gene pool won't prevent anyone else being like that. It would be far more useful to keep them alive and develop therapy methods so that we can prevent it occurring in the future and fix those who show tendancies towards that kind of behaviour
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Then U.S. is so slow at actually killing the person that received the death penalty. It ends up costing them so much money in the long run to feed them for 10 years of waiting to die. I do think it is justified in the most heinous cases.
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Another stoke for the fire is that Indonesia barely slapped the wrist of people in the successful terrorist plot in Bali in recent history where a shedload of Australians got killed. There was also an Aussie chick who got caught with pot that may not have even been hers that spent like 10-15 years in jail despite a lot of reasonable doubt
AU-Indo relations aside I think anyone that goes into SE Asia with drugs (especially shit like heroin, as opposed to grass) is fucking insane given their notoriety for whacking traffickers. Fuck that for a joke
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Yeah, obviously the death penalty is ridiculous but you should know better than to smuggle drugs in a muslim country.
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I'd have serious delirium being on a jury where the prosecution was seeking the death penalty.
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For a child molester, rapist, murderer, etc, those fucked up humans need to be removed from the gene pool.
Except none of those are genetic issues so removing from the gene pool won't prevent anyone else being like that. It would be far more useful to keep them alive and develop therapy methods so that we can prevent it occurring in the future and fix those who show tendancies towards that kind of behaviour
it's opinions like yours that allow paedos to keep reoffending. turn them over to the mob
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I lived in Singapore which boarders Indonesia for a while. They have the same laws and basically no drugs or druggies exist in Singapore.
Say what you want about the death penalty but in this case I would say it works, the country is virtually drug-free. How many are prepared to die over doing drugs or smuggling them?
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For a child molester, rapist, murderer, etc, those fucked up humans need to be removed from the gene pool.
Except none of those are genetic issues so removing from the gene pool won't prevent anyone else being like that. It would be far more useful to keep them alive and develop therapy methods so that we can prevent it occurring in the future and fix those who show tendancies towards that kind of behaviour
It's more of a figure of speech to "remove them from the gene pool", meaning that we don't need people like that in our society. For the sake of everyone, people who commit heinous crimes and are guilty without a shadow of a doubt deserve nothing more than a bullet to the head.
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Even if it is justified (and maybe it is in some cases) it isn't worth having it because one erroneous judgement could sentence an innocent person to death.
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For something like this, no reason to off them.
For a child molester, rapist, murderer, etc, those fucked up humans need to be removed from the gene pool.
Definitely, they deserve to die.
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You can't think about the death penalty from an emotional standpoint.
To me it seems like a pretty medieval form of punishment and in a modern society the criminal justice system should be based on prevention, correction, and rehabilitation and not on punishment. Then in the cases of pedophiles, psychopaths, etc., those are people who are a danger to society and need to be removed from it and put in prisons but I still think that none of us individually or collectively have the right to decide to end someone's existence. It's also worth adding that the exception to all this is war crimes and war criminals.
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I lived in Singapore which boarders Indonesia for a while. They have the same laws and basically no drugs or druggies exist in Singapore.
Say what you want about the death penalty but in this case I would say it works, the country is virtually drug-free. How many are prepared to die over doing drugs or smuggling them?
Bull-fucking-shit. Indonesia is riddled with drugs, you can buy smack in the prison that these guys are housed in. Plenty of people are still willing to smuggle, rape, murder and be an all-round cunt even thought the death penalty exists. The death penalty is a useless deterrent for crime.
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Everyone knows the death penalty exists over there, so why would you do it? I wouldn't kill them for it, but if I had a law that said I would and some stuck up foreign cunts decided they were above it and that their lives were worth more than local lives I might change my mind. I think it is OK for them to get killed. I would have no issue with Corby copping it either. I'm usually a lefty and used to be against the death penalty but I really don't get the sympathy for the kind of people you already don't want in society. Another Australian heroin trafficker died a few years back in Singapore (I think) and there was a fucking candle light vigil for the cunt in a few major cities. Never seen someone stoked to see a heroin deal go down in front of their house (with the exception of junkies), but apparently a lot of people love the guys a few steps up. I like China's death penalty. Firing squad and then the family has to pay for the bullets. It just makes more sense than an injection.
It's their law. I don't think Indonesia should back down to Abbot. I certainly wouldn't want us to change our laws for them.
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Bull-fucking-shit. Indonesia is riddled with drugs
Well yeah, Indonesia. I meant Singapore, but then again it is by far easier to control the borders of a tiny first world city-state than a third-world country that is one of the biggest in the world. I have seen drugs in Indonesia too, but not in the muslim part.
I wouldnt go as far as to say that putting your nose in someone else´s justice system is bad, countries can have messed up laws. But drug trafficing is not completely off the hook to have a death penalty for, and since many drug trafficers are foreigners its not completely off the hook to execute these guys in their legal sense.
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If a single innocent person is killed mistakenly then the death penalty is unworkable. You can't bring them back from that. It's barbaric and doesn't even help as a deterrent.
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What makes everyone say it doesnt help as a deterrent.
I am quite the law-abiding citizen, I just jaywalk alot. If they would implement the death sentence as punishment for jaywalking I will be sure to stop doing it...
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What makes everyone say it doesnt help as a deterrent.
I am quite the law-abiding citizen, I just jaywalk alot. If they would implement the death sentence as punishment for jaywalking I will be sure to stop doing it...
All the people that commit crimes that (legally) warrant the death penalty show that it's not enough of a deterrent.
That's a shit analogy. How often do you jaywalk in a fit of rage, or in an extreme case of desperation or panic? Do you jaywalk because you're mentally unstable, either from a chemical imbalance in your brain, or from some sort of psychological trauma?
Killing someone is widely considered to be the number one crime. I don't know how you're supposed to have any faith in a legal system that legally sanctions and commits that very same act.
Putting someone to death serves no purpose whatsoever. Outside of revenge, there's no gain from it and no legal system in the present day is based on "an eye for eye" type thinking because it's both childish and barbaric when taken to its ultimate conclusion. And what if someone is later to be found not guilty, having already been put to death? Try the legal system for murder? They would have committed the most serious crime against an innocent member of their own society. Who then is culpable?
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You don't go into someone else's house and tell them how to live. The guy broke the law and I'm sure he knew the penalty for it. There's only a fuss cause he's not from that country, if he were, no one would care.
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There's only a fuss cause he's a white anglophone.
Fixed.
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They're actually not white.
JFax, worst analogy ever.
When it comes to the death penalty, I think it says a lot when redneck Aussies who are so far away from the issue to be almost advocating for the execution when pedo cunts and murders get out of jail in less time than these two lads in Indonesia have been locked up for. This execution has been 10 years in the making, they're rehabilitated from what everyone is saying and the hypocrisy around the whole issue from Indonesia is beyond belief. I still think they're going to go ahead with it, purely so they can laugh in Abbott's face.
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Wouldn't be at all surprised that Abbott cemented their fate just by opening his downy fucking tucker slot. He's that obnoxious
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I do agree that the death penalty is not a deterrent, as the people who rape/murder/etc either don't care about the consequences or aren't coherent enough to realize them.
I also agree that someone mistakenly being put to death nullifies the benefits that the punishment may have on society.
BUT... what's the alternative? Life in prison? Rehabilitation has proven not to work for most cases. There are, without a doubt, some people who do not belong in our society.
We need a damn prison planet to send them to.
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Im not pro death penalty and realize that my analogy is silly. But drug trafficing and rape/murder is also vastly different. You dont traffic drugs due to a fit of rage or mental instability. You either think you can get away with anything, in a mob or being pushed into it.
I believe they should get lengthy prison sentances. 10 years they got already is long enough. I have unfortunately not read up on the details of the case. If it was some kind of drug tradficing syndicate they should of course be punished by suitable means. If they just had trafficed some for own consumption I think my analogy isnt too far out. It doesnt really hurt anyone else, you dont do it because you are super unstable and should thus be quite the detterant
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They're actually not white.
5 of the 9 are.
But it's not really a topic of white vs. any other race. It's about whether any country has the authority to have say over what another country does, what makes it acceptable that Western countries are allowed to impose their ideas over the rule of any other?
It's the equivalent of Muslims going crazy because some guy in France drew Muhammad. To them that's law. They broke it and they deserved the punishment cause their ideas of law are above everyone else. I'm not equating one to the other but if democracy truly is the best system to govern a region then let the people come to that conclusion by themselves, not let it be dictated by a bunch of outsiders who feel they know best for them.
There is a thought that a lot of immigrants hold which is that the Western world's hands aren't clean so who are they to pass judgement on another for their problems.
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Fuck that, if the majority thinks the minority ethnicity should be cleansed of the earth, standing by to let them govern themselves is bullshit.
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For those interested in the actual case AlJazeera has a lengthy interview up with the indonesian president. Unless you are american though, think aljazeera's vids are blocked in the states...
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5 of the 9 are.
Chan and Sukumaran who are on death row are not, the rest of the 9 are not being sentenced to death.
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Unless you are american though, think aljazeera's vids are blocked in the states...
Surprise surprise.
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I did not know that Al-Jazeera was blocked in the US, that's insane.
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It's not blocked, it's channel 200 something on tv here.
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Vids from their websites are semi-blocked. Have to go to a special site to see some content.
Idk, it is blocked on my chrome that is set to use American IP addresses.
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Fuck that, if the majority thinks the minority ethnicity should be cleansed of the earth, standing by to let them govern themselves is bullshit.
Man genocide is something else compared to drug runners.
I do think a world police is needed in today's world, don't get me wrong, just that you can't expect the locals to wholeheartedly accept what some bigger nation proposes.
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It's the equivalent of Muslims going crazy because some guy in France drew Muhammad. To them that's law. They broke it and they deserved the punishment cause their ideas of law are above everyone else. I'm not equating one to the other but if democracy truly is the best system to govern a region then let the people come to that conclusion by themselves, not let it be dictated by a bunch of outsiders who feel they know best for them.
And this
I do think a world police is needed in today's world, don't get me wrong, just that you can't expect the locals to wholeheartedly accept what some bigger nation proposes.
Have very distinct conflicts in my eyes.
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It's a thin line. Countries deserve a level of self determination which allows them to define which freedoms mean most to them but at the same time I do believe in a universal principle of basic human rights and if those rights are violated. The UN has the right to impede.
But this isn't genocide it's story of a bunch of foreigners who got caught doing a clearly illegal thing for profit. From what I can see there is no call for all Indonesian drug smugglers with similar fates to be freed, just these 9. Simply because they're foreigners from a more powerful nation.
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There should be equal precedence to chronic public masturbators being put to death as there is an asshole dealing death. I think it's bullshit to delineate the death penalty. It is a very precise and contradictory thing to declare the worth of a life and simultaneously exclaim the forfeiture of another's.
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I do not think the taking of a life is ever justified. There have been too many fuck ups in the courts where it is later proved that the dead guy is innocent. There is never any way of being 100% certain, at least with prison you can be compensated/released if you end up being innocent. It is a permanent solution and as seen in many cases it all too often ends up killing innocent people.
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People can preach the importance of taking an innocent life but the very same people don't think twice about a system which negates the quality of everyday human lives in the favor of expanding the 'livelihood' of a few. They know it exists but they also know the sacrifice which would be needed to end such a thing, virtually no one is willing to make that sacrifice regardless how noble the idea. The world is a hypocrisy. Quite honestly I don't judge those people who still hold ideals for human life cause frankly even the idea of people mattering is a step forwards more than the reality; which is that they don't.
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Truffle butter
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From what I can see there is no call for all Indonesian drug smugglers with similar fates to be freed, just these 9. Simply because they're foreigners from a more powerful nation.
Wrong. Also, Indonesia is busting nuts trying to get their nationals off death row in other countries for drug crimes. Hypocrisy is through the roof here.
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Wrong. Also, Indonesia is busting nuts trying to get their nationals off death row in other countries for drug crimes.
Source?
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Every news outlet in my country.
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The executions went ahead this morning, has this been covered anywhere else in the world?
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The executions went ahead this morning, has this been covered anywhere else in the world?
have not heard a thing
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Second story on BBC news.
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Yeah saw it (not the actual execution of course) on Al Jazeera.
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I heard something about it yesterday. This thread was my only reference to it though.