Bikeguide.org - Bike maintenance for BMX'ers
The Street => The Bike Shop => Topic started by: jonathan on November 26, 2014, 08:37:41 AM
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I don't ride BMX anymore. sorry. I have been doing everything else that's possible with a bicycle lately though.
I ride a "small" custom built Surly Karate Monkey 29er (1x9 gearing, 80mm squish fork, giant tires) even though most would say I should be on a size up for my height. maybe I prefer the smaller frame from years of riding little bikes. I find that I avoid a lot of the really "interesting" trails around here. the terrain has lots of gnarly exposed rock with some steep descents and drops and I hesitate to even go near that stuff. I have taken some of it a few times, but usually because someone led me out there and I could not find my way back home by myself.
so I want a bike that's more confidence-inspiring and I think all the marketing hype around 650B wheels is getting in my head. FS bike is not in the budget, so if I wanted a more capable HT, what have you bmx-gone-mtb guys experienced on 29"/27.5" tire-ed bikes?
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I've been through this same cycle and thought process, the smaller frame is hurting your off road ability. The bmxer in you wants a tight feeling bike but for true MTB rocks and steeps you need a big enough bike to move around on.
As for wheel size, I love 29" on a hardtail. 27.5" is just marketing and is effectively the new 26". Unless you're on your game already, moving from 26" to 27.5" with all else constant won't change much of anything for you.
Find a complete for sure. $1500-$2000 will get you a nice new bike like a Kona Honzo or Explosif. You can probably still find a leftover 2014 of most brands for a discount. A slacker HT angle and lower BB will also help you feel better in the rough stuff.
Good luck!
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I am borrowing a 100mm fork to try on on the Karate Monkey for now. I have a set-back seatpost, 60mm stem, and 32" riser bars on it, so it's certainly a frankenbike at this point. I had a Vassago Jabberwocky for a little while and I could not stand something about it. I had the 16" frame, which had a 600mm ETT, which is what most 17-18 inch "medium" frames have. the KM has a much shorter ETT. I don't know if it was the longer ETT or the longer CS that I hated about the Jabber, but it rode like ass.
I could potentially put a 120mm fork on the KM but that would be pushing it. its' designed for a 80mm, so 100mm is fine. the HA is relatively steep, nothing I can do about that other than getting a new bike.
I work in the industry so I have only a few bikes that I can get a decent price on- Diamondback, GT, Cannondale, Surly (maybe), and that German Ghost brand, which I have not seen yet. I would have to sell my KM to afford a new bike, so I don't want to sell it and regret it.
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been out of the mtb loop for a while now, sadly. but i recently saw this which may be of help to you http://www.peterverdone.com/?p=6409
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thanks, that's good for perspective. I think that author has a little more bike in mind than I ever did. According to him, my bike does not even qualify as a mountain bike. maybe he's right. 120mm+ and a dropper post sounds excessive to me, but I am coming from the retrogrouch world of single-speed rigid bikes. maybe something in the middle would be nice. I don't have anything close to a need for a 160mm FS bike (nor the budget) but a short-CS 120mm hardtail would be nice.
I might be able to afford one of these if I sold the KM:
http://www.ghost-bikes.com/bikes-2015/bike-detail/kato-pro-6/
or
http://www.diamondback.com/bikes-mountain-hardtail-all-mountain-29-mason
or
http://www.diamondback.com/bikes-mountain-hardtail-xc-trail-27-5-axis-pro
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If you're in the industry, Kona and Transition both have good pro-deals. Worth looking into.
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I would be all over an Explosif if I could but I don't work for a dealer but it could not hurt to ask them.
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if you work for a shop that has Q as their distro i thiiiinkkkk you can get kona brodeals
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rocky mountain
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I would be all over an Explosif if I could but I don't work for a dealer but it could not hurt to ask them.
I worked in the industry at a manufacturer and Kona pro-dealed me a Unit 29er. You can apparently get better deals if you work for an official Kona shop but that's not the case here.
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If you want the frame only and want to try something a little bigger, check out On-One.
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I would look for bargain second hand 26" FS bikes. The value of these has dropped out of all proportion with how good they actually are just because of all the wheel size stuff. They still ride just as well as they ever did on the type of terrain you are describing, but the previous owners all decided that they were suddenly garbage for no apparent reason...
:)
G.
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My only concern with any used fs bike is availability of hardware. If the bike is past it's prime, it might be impossible or at least very difficult to find replacement hardware. Maybe a used 26er ht with a slack HA and a long fork would work, but at that point I might as well get something more modern, which means 650. With my (limited) industry discount, there is usually no point in getting a used bike.
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I'd probably go for gt out of the brands you listed
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My only concern with any used fs bike is availability of hardware. If the bike is past it's prime, it might be impossible or at least very difficult to find replacement hardware. Maybe a used 26er ht with a slack HA and a long fork would work, but at that point I might as well get something more modern, which means 650. With my (limited) industry discount, there is usually no point in getting a used bike.
I wouldn't worry too much about that, so long as you pick a more prevalent brand. As for parts needing replacing, thats the magic of pushing the old horses.
I agree with G though, 26" hardtails get NO love, and some deals on these classics are just waiting to be had. My 1993 Cannondale Killer-V 900 is a beauty of polished aluminium with nearly invisible seams, and early Manitou TPC fork, same old never been trued wheels on never been serviced hubs. I switched the long stem and flat bars for wide bars and a short Thomson, replaced a bunch of old drivetrain and cockpit with new Deore (base model) stuff, and now the thing is a bloody weapon at ~12 kg.
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Also, pics of your bike would help. Karate monkeys are perfectly capable trail bikes, maybe a tweak in set up would help
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If you have access to any kind of industry pricing or pro deals, buying used is worthless IMO.
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I'd probably go for gt out of the brands you listed
Any specific GT you like? I have been unimpressed with their hardtails. Zaskar Elite perhaps.
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My only concern with any used fs bike is availability of hardware. If the bike is past it's prime, it might be impossible or at least very difficult to find replacement hardware. Maybe a used 26er ht with a slack HA and a long fork would work, but at that point I might as well get something more modern, which means 650. With my (limited) industry discount, there is usually no point in getting a used bike.
Usually just pivot bearings and shock bushings which are generic anyway. Anything else you should be able to inspect before buying. Normally I would agree about second hand not being worth it, but 26" prices seem seriously depressed right now. A mate has picked up a few FS 26" bikes for silly money on ebay just because there was no other interest, I bet craigslist is bulging with them. If you get something for half your budget then you can spend the rest on bearings, a new drive train and tyres etc to freshen it up.
:)
G.
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Post that youre looking in STORM and Alamo Bike bay on facebook. There seems to be tons of older dudes selling their old bikes for the latest and greatest. Most of them don't look very harshly ridden. I'm hopefully about to pick up a hardtail for silly cheap if it fits my fiance.
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current bike w/ 100mm fork, 60mm stem, set-back post.
(http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz111/mack_turtle/bikes/20141127_220622-1_zpsevm3xawb.jpg)
hard to see anything from that. the seatpost is long and it's almost maxed out.
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Looks good, but holy short top tube (unless you're a midget).
You could always replace your frame with a longer frame.
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I've always wanted a Diamondback Mason, can't get em in the UK though.
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I've been through this same cycle and thought process, the smaller frame is hurting your off road ability. The bmxer in you wants a tight feeling bike but for true MTB rocks and steeps you need a big enough bike to move around on.
this nugget is pure gold. thank you. I had my wife take a photo of me sitting on the bike in a neutral position and I look like a circus bear on a tricycle.
This is what I get for going to the internet for advice and following trends- everyone is on the "short stem, wide bars" bandwagon, so I bought a 60mm stem and 760mm bars. I think that could work if the frame fit me in the first place, but I was willing to settle for a bandaid fix.I have a longer stem that I will put on for now and look into swapping this frame for something a little longer.
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High front end helps with technical stuff on a hardtail, all the riding round my way is fairly hairy and i almost exclusively ride one. 5'11, med frame, 130mm fork, 65mm stem, couple of spacers, 40mm rise bars, forks pretty hard to keep the ride height up. Mines at the more extreme end, but it still climbs fine and is perfectly comfortable for me anyway.
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I'd probably go for gt out of the brands you listed
Any specific GT you like? I have been unimpressed with their hardtails. Zaskar Elite perhaps.
It was more that Cannondales are a bit meh and haven't seen Diamondback in ages. My friends in Whistler had been riding GT Furys and enjoying them.
Your bike definitely looks short, maybe a longer stem and flat bars would help. But at the same time, if you want something more flickable then moving away from 29 is probably the best bet
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look into buying a niner frame. those look hella comfortable for a hardtail 29 and they also make full suspension.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/joelite44/s.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/joelite44/media/s.jpg.html)
http://www.jensonusa.com/Sale/Mountain-Bike-Frames/Niner-Air-9-Frame-2013
as the guys might say you are missing out with used stuff, its cheap and good just like mcdondalds. But buying peak industry geo to me is a full trend right now. It's not about how you ride, it's about the bike and making it justice in the trails. A lot of people following the new trend yeah but there is no one tying their hands down for them to excel. So might as well buy a bike adequate for your trail riding and enjoy it as much as you would any given day.
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I've been through this same cycle and thought process, the smaller frame is hurting your off road ability. The bmxer in you wants a tight feeling bike but for true MTB rocks and steeps you need a big enough bike to move around on.
As for wheel size, I love 29" on a hardtail. 27.5" is just marketing and is effectively the new 26". Unless you're on your game already, moving from 26" to 27.5" with all else constant won't change much of anything for you.
Find a complete for sure. $1500-$2000 will get you a nice new bike like a Kona Honzo or Explosif. You can probably still find a leftover 2014 of most brands for a discount. A slacker HT angle and lower BB will also help you feel better in the rough stuff.
Good luck!
I got into DJ mtb's in 2006, then singlespeed hardtail, then various borrowed and rented XC and AM bikes (FS and hardtail). Also have a Transition Double 4x/slope with 1X9.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying by "For true MTB rocks and steeps you need a big enough bike to move around on."
If anything, I find that the many people in the mtb world are STILL stuck in the dirt roadie mentality. When you are stretched out over a long frame with a long stem, 29 wheels, a high seat and ultra low bb, that is the most dirt roadie position you can be in. And is NOT a help for technical riding in the sense of getting over rocks and definitely not on steep descents. The only thing it is great for is climbing, which many dirt roadies are obsessed with.
I think 29"s are sluggish. And I think 27.5 is a great compromise.
I rode two 27.5" demo bikes at Winter Park this past summer. The 27.5" DH bike felt big/awkward/non-nimble. But the 27.5" Specialized Enduro Carbon felt great.
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/austinmtbbmxalliance/Trestle_July%202014%20Winter%20Park/019_zps91d01119.jpg)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/austinmtbbmxalliance/Trestle_July%202014%20Winter%20Park/034_zps83c93890.jpg)
i crank around regular xc trails on a 4x/slope bike pretty regularly (Transition Double with 1X9 gearing), and i keep up with geared-up 29'er dudes pretty well. i realize that full leg extension setup does make for more efficient riding... but i also don't like giving up some of the 4x/bmx style handling for hitting the berms rollers jumps that i have built out here, mixed in to the regular mtb trails. or even just the feeling of being able to bunnyhop a log in the way that i'm used to etc. etc. i may actually buy a true xc/am mtb soon, but i will definitely ride a size a little smaller and set it up a little more bmx/DJ-ish. probably with a 60-70mm stem, bmx platform pedals, etc.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/cmc_Transition_Double_at_Walnut_berm-line_zps4d81e8e1.jpg)
(i know i failed to do an impressive trick here but it's one of my few riding shots on this bike)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5533/12428002664_a4d4bd812f_c.jpg)
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I've been through this same cycle and thought process, the smaller frame is hurting your off road ability. The bmxer in you wants a tight feeling bike but for true MTB rocks and steeps you need a big enough bike to move around on.
As for wheel size, I love 29" on a hardtail. 27.5" is just marketing and is effectively the new 26". Unless you're on your game already, moving from 26" to 27.5" with all else constant won't change much of anything for you.
Find a complete for sure. $1500-$2000 will get you a nice new bike like a Kona Honzo or Explosif. You can probably still find a leftover 2014 of most brands for a discount. A slacker HT angle and lower BB will also help you feel better in the rough stuff.
Good luck!
I got into DJ mtb's in 2006, then singlespeed hardtail, then various borrowed and rented XC and AM bikes (FS and hardtail). Also have a Transition Double 4x/slope with 1X9.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying by "For true MTB rocks and steeps you need a big enough bike to move around on."
If anything, I find that the many people in the mtb world are STILL stuck in the dirt roadie mentality. When you are stretched out over a long frame with a long stem, 29 wheels, a high seat and ultra low bb, that is the most dirt roadie position you can be in. And is NOT a help for technical riding in the sense of getting over rocks and definitely not on steep descents. The only thing it is great for is climbing, which many dirt roadies are obsessed with.
I think 29"s are sluggish. And I think 27.5 is a great compromise.
I rode two 27.5" demo bikes at Winter Park this past summer. The 27.5" DH bike felt big/awkward/non-nimble. But the 27.5" Specialized Enduro Carbon felt great.
i crank around regular xc trails on a 4x/slope bike pretty regularly (Transition Double with 1X9 gearing), and i keep up with geared-up 29'er dudes pretty well. i realize that full leg extension setup does make for more efficient riding... but i also don't like giving up some of the 4x/bmx style handling for hitting the berms rollers jumps that i have built out here, mixed in to the regular mtb trails. or even just the feeling of being able to bunnyhop a log in the way that i'm used to etc. etc. i may actually buy a true xc/am mtb soon, but i will definitely ride a size a little smaller and set it up a little more bmx/DJ-ish. probably with a 60-70mm stem, bmx platform pedals, etc.
29er tires typically measure ~29.25" tall inflated. "26" tires typically measure ~26.25" tall inflated.
650b tires ("27.5" is absolutely a marketing term and nothing more) typically measure ~27"-27.25" tall when inflated. The wheel size change is minimal and makes very little difference when riding, most of the "improvements" on the new breed of 650b enduro bikes are due to changes in geometry, setup (including wide bars + short stem), and refined suspension technology.
For me, actually riding a MTB in the woods is 50% climbing and 50% descending. For that, I need a bike with enough room to get my weight forward while climbing, and then be stable while descending. Coming from bmx I used to think that a short TT was good so I can throw the bike around but that seriously hurt my MTB riding. I hated every Medium sized frame I owned due to the cramped climbing geometry, and now that I am on Larges my riding has improved as well.
DH racers, who ride 100% downhill at mach chicken speed, are even going as long as possible on their top tubes. The school of thought is progressing and geometry is changing to reflect that.
This is all my 2 cents and should not be taken as anything more than that.
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I think all of this talk of what constitutes the ideal type of bike for anyone is highly dependent on the rider's style and terrain. most of the stuff I ride around here has absolutely no "flow" and lots of slow, grinding, twisty, rock-crawling gnar. there is one trail that is aptly named "Cheese Grater." a lot of the trail I would like to ride seem like they would be better suited for a trials bike than a trail bike. but that's my style- slowly cherry-picking my way through the rocks, taking time to enjoy the woods.
I can see how either of the newer tire sizes and bike styles might suit me better. I have found that a short chainstay length is important to me. otherwise, I might just have to get whatever is available to me in the industry, which seems to be shrinking all the time.
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Jonathan, are you happy with your current frame? Would going up a size or two in it be worth it?
I've ridden no true DH/FR/XC hardtail frame, apart from my Le Toy 24, but even that is closer to the DJ end of the spectrum. Although, I did everything with that frame when I was younger and just pedalled my ass off and didn't care. Would maybe something on the older/cheaper end of the full suspension side of things be something you'd look at?
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I generally like my current frame but I know it's a size too small. I can't buy the exact same frame in a bigger size- Surly discontinued the OG Karate Monkey and my shop can't buy Surly stuff anymore unless I get someone to give me a bro-deal. so while I am thinking of getting a new frame, I am considering a whole new ride setup.
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29er tires typically measure ~29.25" tall inflated. "26" tires typically measure ~26.25" tall inflated.
650b tires ("27.5" is absolutely a marketing term and nothing more) typically measure ~27"-27.25" tall when inflated. The wheel size change is minimal and makes very little difference when riding, most of the "improvements" on the new breed of 650b enduro bikes are due to changes in geometry, setup (including wide bars + short stem), and refined suspension technology.
For me, actually riding a MTB in the woods is 50% climbing and 50% descending. For that, I need a bike with enough room to get my weight forward while climbing, and then be stable while descending. Coming from bmx I used to think that a short TT was good so I can throw the bike around but that seriously hurt my MTB riding. I hated every Medium sized frame I owned due to the cramped climbing geometry, and now that I am on Larges my riding has improved as well.
DH racers, who ride 100% downhill at mach chicken speed, are even going as long as possible on their top tubes. The school of thought is progressing and geometry is changing to reflect that.
This is all my 2 cents and should not be taken as anything more than that.
Good points. I don't spend a ton of time improving my climbing, so I realize a true xc/am bike is better for climbing.
Not sure I can agree on DH bikes being as long as possible. I've been renting all the latest demo bikes at the mountains every summer since 2009 and to me it seems like the "reach" difference is about the same as Dirt Jumpers, which run shorter than XC/AM bikes. For example, compare the "Reach" on the TRANSITION TR500 to their other AM/XC bikes. The XL is for the Downhill bike is shorter than the XL for the other bikes. http://www.transitionbikes.com/2015/Home.cfm#0 (http://www.transitionbikes.com/2015/Home.cfm#0)
I noticed that when I'm riding DH, I actually like a shorter frame (Medium) because it puts me behind the bottom bracket most of the time. When you're going Downhill you do not want to be leaned way out forward.... It's a more upright Motocross stance.
(http://www.sicklines.com/news-images/reach_stack.jpg)
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I was talking specifically about World Cup level racers... They are going as long as possible. Longer frames plus offset headsets even for the average height racers. And as always, WC geometry trickles down into all DH bikes because going fast is the name of the game and nobody does that better than pro racers.
And I disagree about keeping your weight "behind the BB"... Centered weight will keep your front end planted, the last thing you want is to wash the front out in a turn due to too little pressure on the front tire.
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master with the knowledge.
all mountain/trail/enduro bikes are a great example of the aforementioned trickle-down.
they have significantly longer reach, as well as front centers and wheelbases compared to just a few years ago. the nomad is a pretty good example of this, which has is longer just about everywhere than a full blown dh rig from just a few seasons ago. times are a changin' (and i need myself a fuckin mtb)
this is some epic thread derailment.
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I don't ride BMX anymore. sorry. I have been doing everything else that's possible with a bicycle lately though.
I ride a "small" custom built Surly Karate Monkey 29er (1x9 gearing, 80mm squish fork, giant tires) even though most would say I should be on a size up for my height. maybe I prefer the smaller frame from years of riding little bikes. I find that I avoid a lot of the really "interesting" trails around here. the terrain has lots of gnarly exposed rock with some steep descents and drops and I hesitate to even go near that stuff. I have taken some of it a few times, but usually because someone led me out there and I could not find my way back home by myself.
so I want a bike that's more confidence-inspiring and I think all the marketing hype around 650B wheels is getting in my head. FS bike is not in the budget, so if I wanted a more capable HT, what have you bmx-gone-mtb guys experienced on 29"/27.5" tire-ed bikes?
How did this work out?
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I ended up getting a "large" (aka medium) 17.5" Soma Juice. it's about the same size as a 18" Karate Monkey of the same vintage. I wanted to get a sized-up KM but I was working at REI at the time and something had soured between REI and Surly, so we could no longer pro-deal Surly frames or bikes. (oddly enough, REI is now a Salsa dealer, which is owned by the same company.) anyhow, I was able to get Soma stuff through BTI. I have ridden it on places you probably know: BCGB, Walnut, SATN, and recently rode the Texas Chainring Massacre on it. it's single-speed most of the time, but I have a 1x10 setup that goes on it occasionally. I have ridden it with a Reba at 120mm, 100mm, and a Salsa rigid fork. I might enjoy something different, but I had very limited choices at the time. I don't think it's holding me back.
29" tires definitely do very well for me on Austin terrain. Glad I did not get a 650b. chucky trails and smaller wheels seems like a bad idea to me, especially on a singlespeed where every little inch of momentum you can save is crucial. I only wish the chainstays on the Juice were shorter. the shortest setting on the dropouts is 17.5", which is quite long by today's standards. I think getting up ledges and maintaining rear traction while climbing would be easier if I could take a link out of my chain, but that would mean just buying a whole new frame. I don't work in a bike shop anymore, so it's harder to justify paying full price for anything. I have written a bit about it on my blog, but i need to write more about this bike's trail capabilities- http://sidewallthorn.blogspot.com/
Update- the long chainstays on the Juice have always bugged me. Shopping for a new frame now.
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I ended up getting a "large" (aka medium) 17.5" Soma Juice. it's about the same size as a 18" Karate Monkey of the same vintage. I wanted to get a sized-up KM but I was working at REI at the time and something had soured between REI and Surly, so we could no longer pro-deal Surly frames or bikes. (oddly enough, REI is now a Salsa dealer, which is owned by the same company.) anyhow, I was able to get Soma stuff through BTI. I have ridden it on places you probably know: BCGB, Walnut, SATN, and recently rode the Texas Chainring Massacre on it. it's single-speed most of the time, but I have a 1x10 setup that goes on it occasionally. I have ridden it with a Reba at 120mm, 100mm, and a Salsa rigid fork. I might enjoy something different, but I had very limited choices at the time. I don't think it's holding me back.
29" tires definitely do very well for me on Austin terrain. Glad I did not get a 650b. chucky trails and smaller wheels seems like a bad idea to me, especially on a singlespeed where every little inch of momentum you can save is crucial. I only wish the chainstays on the Juice were shorter. the shortest setting on the dropouts is 17.5", which is quite long by today's standards. I think getting up ledges and maintaining rear traction while climbing would be easier if I could take a link out of my chain, but that would mean just buying a whole new frame. I don't work in a bike shop anymore, so it's harder to justify paying full price for anything. I have written a bit about it on my blog, but i need to write more about this bike's trail capabilities- http://sidewallthorn.blogspot.com/
Update- the long chainstays on the Juice have always bugged me. Shopping for a new frame now.
Are there any 29'ers with less bb drop? It seems like part of why 29'ers feel so glued to the ground is not just the long cs, but also the bb being way below axle level....
This guy did a custom 29'er dirt jumper. Whatever the pros and cons of that, it's interesting that the bb appears to be at or slightly above axle level.
http://plussizebmx.squarespace.com/blog/2012/4/3/bike-check-custom-dobermann-29er-dj-bike.html (http://plussizebmx.squarespace.com/blog/2012/4/3/bike-check-custom-dobermann-29er-dj-bike.html)
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FGFS have high BBs. http://breakbrake17.com/portfolio/bb17-serpent-29-freestyle-frame/ . It's easy enough to run a bmx hub in the back but you're limited in terms of brakes and you'll be sticking to rigid forks. Probably run for dicking about on and could do trails but no way you'd take it MTB riding.
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I ended up buying a used Niner ROS 9. I like it so far. It has an eccentric BB, so the center of the cranks can be mover aroud quite a bit. I started with the BB up/back for pedal clearance with rocks but I am trying it down/back now as well. It a singlespeed drivetrain, you only have a few options for BB positioning.