Bikeguide.org - Bike maintenance for BMX'ers
The Street => The Bike Shop => Topic started by: drewfunk on January 20, 2009, 07:53:50 PM
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Well, looks like the 22inch wheeled bike is no longer just a bad idea, its now a reality!
http://bmx.transworld.net/2009/01/20/faction-bike-co-releases-22-bikes/ (http://bmx.transworld.net/2009/01/20/faction-bike-co-releases-22-bikes/)
(http://bmx.transworld.net/files/2009/01/20/faction-bike-co.600x325.jpg)
I think the bike itself looks nice, but i think its a silly idea, i highly doubt we will be seeing any legit companies putting out 22in specific parts any time soon.
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Who the fuck is Faction bike co?
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Maybe they're for giants? I know of some pretty BIG guys that love riding BMX but are cramped on even the "bigger" frames. Maybe 22" is a way of Giants holding onto some form of BMX?
That or a really shitty marketing scheme to try & make money......
EPIC FAIL!!! They put an 11.5" on that!?!? Its gunna feel like complete balls!
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i'd so ride one, i hope they catch on
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Looks nice. I like it
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I would ride one as well. I'm quite large.
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I like the absurd amount of control and dominance I have over my little bike. 22" just doesn't seem right.
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I love riding my 24" cruisers and my 20" bikes so I'm pretty sure I would like one of these also.
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neil harrington needs to ride these
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I think its practical, but with Sunday just stepping into the cruiser market it will be harder for these guys.
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I'm not too big of a guy but I think it would be fun to ride one.
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ill give you 22in of love
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Maybe they're for giants?
EPIC FAIL!!! They put an 11.5" on that!?!? Its gunna feel like complete balls!
well if you have a 20 inch frame with more than an inch of chainstay adjustment (or enough tire clearance anyway) you could run your current frame and keep the specs except bb height will jump an inch
looks like i wont sell my faithful wtp, with its long dropouts, when its time is up
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the geo and complete build on the Zeitgeist is decent but not the greatest, but Faction have improved a ton with the new frame, the Amero. and, we've been testing out some different frame designs for 22"s:
Austin TX local Vernon Sexton, riding his friend's custom built (Solid and S&M) Webbco 22" :
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/WEBBCO22-VernonSexton.jpg)
Vernon and I are about to build up another 22" wheel proto (fabricated by Matt and Stout Bikes in Houston TX) --- 21.8 tt 12.4 bb 14" rear, 5.3 lbs, straight gauge chromoly:
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p125/nonrev1981/101_5863.jpg)
here's the Webbco on the right:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/WEBBCO22-comparewith20.jpg)
....
and . . . from Faction's facebook:
"David Yezeirski, New York trails riding his Zeitgeist bike, photo by Keith Terra 2010 We used this pic for the December advert in Dirt MTB magazine."
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/154848_472639432340_100532622340_6362807_4680067_n.jpg)
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Do we really need a 650b-type BMX option? I mean, how disadvantaged do people feel without an option between 20" and 24"?
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that looks sweet
too many wheelsizes in the cycling industry though, in my opinion atleast
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Do we really need a 650b-type BMX option? I mean, how disadvantaged do people feel without an option between 20" and 24"?
Not trying to argue 22" is "better" than 20. It's just an option. So no, not every BMX'er "needs" it. It's just an option for those of us who are stoked on it.
that looks sweet
too many wheelsizes in the cycling industry though, in my opinion atleast
BMX wheels already come in every 2" increment size EXCEPT 22". we've got 10", 12", 14", 16", 18", 20", 24", 26", and maybe even count the SE 29"er.
if you've ever spent time riding trails on 24" or 26" you definitely notice aspects about bigger wheels. however, riding street or park on 24" is good (esp. on Liquid or Model C) but it still does not feel as snappy as 20"s.
when i got my 22" from Faction (after years of dreaming about them, and at one point back around 2002 even making calls to tire manufacturers to investigate possibilities), the bike felt instantly comfortable. it's hard to explain--it's not like i'm trying to say it's better, only that it feels more normal and comfortable to me, being 6'1" with long legs. only a rider who has gone back and forth a lot between 20 and 24 would get it. it's not for everyone. just a cool option.
and by the way, i tried a Macneil Deuce Deuce with 9" bars. felt pretty good. but honestly, the 22" wheels on a big bmx look more proportional and make more aesthetic sense. note how the Faction fork is an inch taller, which means that the bars can be 8" and your grips are at the same height as if you had 9"s on the Deuce Deuce. if you're happy with 8"s on a 20" then obviously this doesn't matter.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Macneil-20---Faction-22.jpg)
comparison with a General Lee 24":
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/DK24---Faction22.jpg)
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well if you have a 20 inch frame with more than an inch of chainstay adjustment (or enough tire clearance anyway) you could run your current frame and keep the specs except bb height will jump an inch
. . .
yes i tried this! just to see. but you end up with the cs way too long--15.75" in this pic. the proto frame Vernon got built has a 14" cs with 22" wheel.
here's a 22" wheel in a '96 Hoffman Taj:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/003-1.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/007-1.jpg)
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So, who's making rims and tires?
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I'm only 5'9" but would like to give one a go. Didn't get on with the Sunday 20" I had for a while, it was alright but felt way too twitchy. Then again I was trying to ride trails on it when its really a street bike.
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(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/154848_472639432340_100532622340_6362807_4680067_n.jpg)
Nice
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Presenting the 22"-wheel specific prototype trail frame from Austin local Vernon Sexton's company: the 1NDUST "2TON"
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/indust007.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/indust006.jpg)
next to a LIQUID Feedback 24":
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/indust017.jpg)
http://rideindust.wordpress.com/ (http://rideindust.wordpress.com/)
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I cannot tell the difference in wheel size on that 22" and a normal bmx. I don't see the point, but I won't pass judgement till I can have a go on one.
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I definetly want to try one
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that green one looks really nice, not so low-slung/moutainbike-y like normal. I'm only 5'5 so 20" is all I could ever ride, haha.
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id try
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Specs on that new frame?
Said it before and I'll say it again. if a decent 22 was available right now I'd buy one. By the time the Amero or something like it come out, I'll be broke.....
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It seems like a decent idea to me, although I am not ready to make the leap and buy one, I would have to give a try first.
I feel that 26 is definitely too large for street and park and maneuverability suffers quite a lot. 24 is still a bit large, and I could really see 22 being an option for the taller riders out there.
If I were to build up a dedicated "trails" bike I would probably get a 22.
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If Odyssey/G-sport made 22" tires and rims I'd do it in a heart beat.
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I wouldn't mind trying one out. I found 20's to be too small for me, and 24/26 is just too slow to ride park/street effectively.
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coming from racing 24''s imho 20''s are sketchy for some one 6'-3''and 230lb like me and 24 is slow to throw around seems to me 22" would be the best of both worlds.
my porridge is to hot 20
my porridge is to cold 24
this porridge is just right 22
lol
although i don't know what the aba /nbl would consider a 22 not a 20 but not a cruiser
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my friend needs one those cuase helooks like frankenstien tryn to ride bmx
and for those of us whom a cruiser is too big for :D
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(http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/10765MacDrePeace-1.jpg)
whussup holmes, what size them rims is?
twenty-two muthafuckin inches
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Add me to the list of people tat want one. I was hoping for one to race with, but there is currently no class for them in the ABA.
I will be getting one for riding trails and street with my sons. Hopefully 1indust puts out something good, they've got some great local companies they can lean on for stuff. ;)
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I realize there isn't a class for them, but I wonder if the aba has any official ruling? IF you were to ride one can you ride in the 20" class, 24", both, or are they just outright banned?
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I was told not allowed. :( Not going to stop me from racing it though. Unless someone in your class objects, you should be fine. Especially at local races.
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Would love to try one being a taller chap. Pretty happy with my Deluxe but I'm interested in seeing where this goes.
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I wish 22" was the standard bmx size.
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I've raced a 24inch before, and it's super easy to move around and/or compress from a landing too much and buzz your jeans on your back tire. You can deal with it in racing, but for freestyle it seems like a 24 would be restricting. Maybe a 22 is a better choice for bigger/older guys without loosing all the maneuverability that you do going to a 24.
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The bike sounds like a good idea, but until more companies start making 22" tires and rims the idea will go nowhere.
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Its a bit of a catch 22 because companies will not start making more 22" rims and tires until the idea goes somewhere.
I really applaud these companies for having to guts to try and pull this off.
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nice pun.
I don't really get people having a go at this, more options is always a good thing in my idea. Guess they would be pretty slick for trails
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me superman plop plop :D :D :D
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The bike sounds like a good idea, but until more companies start making 22" tires and rims the idea will go nowhere.
Tires is more the issue than rims, because Vernon's buddy got an order of a batch of rims from Taiwan--which apparently wasn't that hard to do.
Here's one of Vernon's rims he got built up.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Vernons-22-inch-wheel.jpg)
Vernon riding his custom frame (fabricated by STOUT Bikes. Matt out STOUT is a highly skilled builder of custom BMX and MTB's and he'll make practically any design people want... http://stoutbikes.blogspot.com/ (http://stoutbikes.blogspot.com/) )
(http://www.liquorbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/vernon_whip.jpg)
photo by James Stevens, LIQUOR BIKES http://www.liquorbikes.com/ (http://www.liquorbikes.com/)
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Good luck with your business, I like the idea. I know some guys who wanted to start BMXing but gave up (and moved to MTB) because the bike was simply too small for them.
What selection of tires is available? It looks like dirtmonsters in the pics. I can understand that rims can be made no problem, it probably mainly means re-adjusting of bending radius of extrusion that the rim is made of. But for tires you need completely new mold, which apparently can go up to 10s of K usd.
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. . . What selection of tires is available? It looks like dirtmonsters in the pics. I can understand that rims can be made no problem, it probably mainly means re-adjusting of bending radius of extrusion that the rim is made of. But for tires you need completely new mold, which apparently can go up to 10s of K usd.
For tires, I think it's pretty much just the ones that FACTION are doing. Although their website currently says "out of stock" I know they have new batches coming. http://web58.justhost.com/~faction1/store/home.php?cat=3 (http://web58.justhost.com/~faction1/store/home.php?cat=3)
If you join their Facebook, you can keep up with things like that..
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Faction-Bike-Co-22-wheel-bikes/100532622340 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Faction-Bike-Co-22-wheel-bikes/100532622340)
When I bought my Zeitgeist, I ordered extra tires.....
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i think it'll be fun, wouldn't mine riding 22" on trails instead of 20". possibly go with a higher BB height to make it feel more BMX ish? i don't know
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Does mutiny have a 22" proto?
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(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/DK24---Faction22.jpg)
The General Lee looks like its dialed to be used as a 24" flat bike Lol
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How fat of a tire can fit in the rear tri? I'm interested in putting together sort of a Pugsley/BMX hybrid for winter riding, and this seems like it fits the bill, as long as I can fit a big tire. Speaking of which, who even makes a 22 inch tire?
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Vernon's custom 22" fork, made by S&M !
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Vernons_SandM_22_fork.jpg)
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Nice, I wouldn't mind owning a 22" bike...even though I'm only 5'8" hahah. I wanted a Sunday 24" but it feels too big for some reason
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Same here Alice. I only had a Model C for about a week and then went back to riding my son's Funday Triple Shot bike.
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was cool to see S&M listing the 22" fork in their custom options:
LEGS True Temper butted CrMo
STEERER 1 PC CNC-Machined CrMo
DROPOUTS Laser Cut 3/8" or 14mm
AXLE TO CROWN (18") 289.5mm
(20") 315mm
(22") 340.5mm (24") 366mm
(26") 435mm
OFFSET 33mm
WEIGHT 2.1 lbs (20")
(http://www.sandmbikes.com/images/products/PITCHALLL-LRG.jpg)
http://www.sandmbikes.com/_catalog_133396/Custom_Forks (http://www.sandmbikes.com/_catalog_133396/Custom_Forks)
also cool to see an all white Faction Amero (their new higher-end frame) compared with a newer model Macneil Deuce Deuce.
Macneil
(http://www.macneilbmx.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/mcnl_cstm_deuce_deuce_01_original-625x416.jpg)
Faction "Amero"
(http://wideopenmag.co.uk/images/IMG_1365-2-600x399.jpg)
http://wideopenmag.co.uk/news/3197/faction-bike-co-the-22-bmx-project-video-interview (http://wideopenmag.co.uk/news/3197/faction-bike-co-the-22-bmx-project-video-interview)
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Next up, S&M 22 inch frames....... ;)
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I wouldnt ride one myself as im rather short, but i know my mate whos a lanky bastard has been going on about wanting one for ages.
But not only is there the problem of getting rims and tyres but also what about spokes?
You could use plain guage spokes and just cut and re-thread but thats gonna take forever. Or is there someone that already does spokes in that length?
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Im 5 7 and ride a 22.25 length frame. Stoked for these new sized wheels.
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saw this on Faction's Facebook
Micke S.'s SE with 22"s
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Micke-SE22.jpg)
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i don't have any details on it (even whose it is) yet, but here's a pic of a custom Standard frame for 22"s. damn, looks goooood !
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320650_10150301872706048_165351091047_7931842_73950315_n.jpg)
from:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&page=3 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&page=3)
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needs moar standover, the frame looks really low.
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I agree about the standover but WOW I would love to try one of those.
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needs moar standover, the frame looks really low.
well i dunno what the seat tube length is--i'll have to ask the dude--but it MIGHT just be that the standover looks low because of the taller wheels/tires. but it might actually be the same as a 20" (comparing bb location to top tube location). just a thought.
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Yeah probably, it doesn't look so bad now I look back at it anyway. Seriously interested in these bikes when the new model comes out but the only thing putting me off is the tyre availability situation at the minute. Hopefully when I can actually afford one that'll be sorted, and I'll be able to find one to demo in the uk.
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the3y say dirt jumpings easier on a big bike, but most big bikes feel way too different, I really wanna build later one. hopefully they catch on..
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not sure yet on the stats, but here's another custom STANDARD 22"-wheel bmx. (Steve T's).
looks sick !!
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/22--Steve-T--STANDARD.jpg)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/22-inches-love-feels-just-right-237841/index4/#post3725912 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/22-inches-love-feels-just-right-237841/index4/#post3725912)
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i want one, but want to test ride one, but i highly doubt that'll happen =(
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Stoked to see brake pivots on the fork
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Yeah probably, it doesn't look so bad now I look back at it anyway. Seriously interested in these bikes when the new model comes out but the only thing putting me off is the tyre availability situation at the minute. Hopefully when I can actually afford one that'll be sorted, and I'll be able to find one to demo in the uk.
Apparently, the tire thing is starting to work itself out nicely, at least in the UK.
I found several tire options on eBay UK:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIRHANA-22-INCH-BMX-BIKE-TYRE-/220857942580?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item336c28c234 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIRHANA-22-INCH-BMX-BIKE-TYRE-/220857942580?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item336c28c234)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BICYCLE-Tyre-22-x-2-20-Street-Park-Bmx-Tyre-BLACK-/270807014881?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Mobility_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item3f0d5b1de1 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BICYCLE-Tyre-22-x-2-20-Street-Park-Bmx-Tyre-BLACK-/270807014881?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Mobility_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item3f0d5b1de1)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bike-Tyre-22-x-2-2-Smooth-Ramp-Tread-/230667183854?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item35b4d5e6ee (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bike-Tyre-22-x-2-2-Smooth-Ramp-Tread-/230667183854?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item35b4d5e6ee)
One of the reasons the tires are more available might be because Toys R Us in the UK and other department stores sell a cheapo kids bmx with 22" wheels. I had never heard of that and just stumbled across it the other day. Crazy, huh.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/ToysRUs-Magna22Punish.jpg)
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This dude flairs the fuck out of the Amero 22":
http://vimeo.com/23549587 (http://vimeo.com/23549587)
http://thebikecheck.blogspot.com/2010/10/faction-amero-mk1.html (http://thebikecheck.blogspot.com/2010/10/faction-amero-mk1.html)
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Isnt the problem that the tyres are all terrible? Until someone is prepared to invest in a mold and machine for a really good tyre then that isnt going to change. Hell it took years to get the tyre manufacturers to make the better machines for doing kevlar 20" tyres.
We were asked if we fancied doing 22" tyres and there was just no way to justify the costs on our side and even if we did the factories dont have the better machines for this size, its a catch 22, no decent tyres so poor take up, poor take up so no tyres... Its not like 29" where there are huge numbers of people used to spending lots of money and you can already make it on existing road bike equipment...
G.
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I'm sure the people who rode those tires in the video are fearing for their lives that their tires are going to explode any second. I'm sure they just didn't show how the tires rolled off the rims every other minute when they filmed the video.
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I'm sure the people who rode those tires in the video are fearing for their lives that their tires are going to explode any second. I'm sure they just didn't show how the tires rolled off the rims every other minute when they filmed the video.
Hey, I have never tried them myself, just going off the feedback we got from legendary bike riders who tried the size and liked it but couldn't get the performance they wanted from the tyres so asked us if we were planning on doing them.
I thought my input might be constructive but I guess not...
I am open to new sizes etc, I love my 24" and would happily try this size too, but when we look at the practicalities of it, the tyres are a major hurdle, much more so than doing 29" was for MTBers. If there was a common bead the tyres could share with road or mtbs or something then it would be a lot easier... The 24" tyres we do now are already a bit of a headache from our point of view.
Stuff like this needs to be top down. Top riders try it and like it, so it trickles down and THEN you get cheap bikes using it. This is what 29" has done. Hard to see how it could work the other way.
Local shredder sees beginner kid with department store bike on 22" and thinks, hey I will give that a go, local shredder goes to bigger comp and pro riders see it...??? Seems unlikely..
Thread is nearly 3 years old now and has reached 4 pages in that time on a super nerdy site like this... not exactly a huge response... Sorry to be negative, as I say, I would love to try it, and I would ideally love to be able to build half a dozen bikes up with 19", 20", 21", 22", 23" and 24" wheels (or even more intermediate sizes) and try them all, but the reality of the industry is that BMX is small and relatively unprofitable branch (compared to "adult" bikes) and this is a small segment of that small market, its hard to see how we could ever get the tyre manufacturers (who need huge numbers) excited about it... "hey on a few years we might get 10% of 5% of your sales, so that is half a percent of what you make?!?!?!"
:)
G.
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BICYCLE-Tyre-22-x-2-20-Street-Park-Bmx-Tyre-BLACK-/270807014881?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Mobility_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item3f0d5b1de1 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BICYCLE-Tyre-22-x-2-20-Street-Park-Bmx-Tyre-BLACK-/270807014881?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Mobility_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item3f0d5b1de1)
Isn't that just a Ruben tire?
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G, i have a ton of respect for you, but since you are kinda quenching the stoke here, i feel compelled to respond.
Hey, I have never tried them myself, just going off the feedback we got from legendary bike riders who tried the size and liked it but couldn't get the performance they wanted from the tyres so asked us if we were planning on doing them.
"Legendary" riders liking the size . . . seems like evidence enough of a good idea. Not to mention the regular riders/diggers like me and my friends in Texas and guys at PA and NY trails, and of course the riders in England who started this. And . . . you really do need to try a 22".
I thought my input might be constructive but I guess not...
Normally your input is very constructive, but this time it was simply "we looked at this, we decided not to do it, and here are the reasons it's a bad BUSINESS idea, (but apparently is a good RIDING idea) . . . .
I am open to new sizes etc, I love my 24" and would happily try this size too, but when we look at the practicalities of it, the tyres are a major hurdle, much more so than doing 29" was for MTBers. If there was a common bead the tyres could share with road or mtbs or something then it would be a lot easier... The 24" tyres we do now are already a bit of a headache from our point of view.
"Major hurdle" and "practicalities" are relative concepts. Anything bike-related can get made, with high quality, in Taiwan/China these days. It just takes someone with some money who wants to get it done. This has nothing to do with engineering/design/fabrication hurdles. It's just money. One respected BMX/MTB tire company I talked to said they could do 500 tires for $10,000. In the scheme of things, $10K ain't much. It doesn't have to be huge to work. I also had another BMX/MTB tire company tell me they weren't interested because they'd hate to have to distribute 22" tires to every bike shop in north america. Another straw man. Flatlanders don't get to find their parts in local bike shops, but it doesn't stop them from ordering through the web.
And, in a sense, the "hurdle" has already been jumped. Faction's first tire wasn't that great, but they followed up with a second one which is awesome. And here it is. My buddy Vernon's been riding them hard for a while with no problems.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/new_Faction_street_tire.jpg)
Stuff like this needs to be top down. Top riders try it and like it, so it trickles down and THEN you get cheap bikes using it. This is what 29" has done. Hard to see how it could work the other way.
Local shredder sees beginner kid with department store bike on 22" and thinks, hey I will give that a go, local shredder goes to bigger comp and pro riders see it...??? Seems unlikely..
Hmmm. Top down. . . . This is a little perplexing, so correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. But, a lot of the early innovations/improvements/new-directions in BMX were actually "bottom up"? Back when big companies were out of touch with what riders were doing in the late 80's, it was young riders with little capital, like Mat Hoffman, Chris Moeller, Rick Moliterno & Kurt Schmidt, who were pushing BMX from the bottom up. As for 22"s and pros, I currently don't see that as a function of pro riders not liking the idea. You already said that legendary riders DO like the idea. Then it is more of a function of the bmx BUSINESS not getting together around a conference table (or a casino table in Vegas at Interbike?) and 'deciding' to agree on the next trend. Frankly, I will always care more about good riding ideas and bike ideas, more than good 'business' ideas. None of us should even be in the bmx biz if it was all about making cash. Cue FUGAZI song here.
Thread is nearly 3 years old now and has reached 4 pages in that time on a super nerdy site like this... not exactly a huge response...
Yeah, I keep this thread going on purpose, because it's a solid concept. Just like the other more complete thread here: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/22-inches-love-feels-just-right-237841/ (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/22-inches-love-feels-just-right-237841/).
If you're correct that a top down approach is needed for any idea to become successful, then you'd have to also agree that the BMX industry has largely cold-shouldered this idea . . . then it's a little odd to also criticize lack of "bottom up" support for an idea that the bmx industry has given zero support to. (Although, that's changing, with S&M, Solid, Standard, and STOUT all making custom 22" stuff right now.)
Sorry to be negative, as I say, I would love to try it, and I would ideally love to be able to build half a dozen bikes up with 19", 20", 21", 22", 23" and 24" wheels (or even more intermediate sizes) and try them all,
Classic straw man argument. No one is saying there should be increments for every inch of wheel diameter. That's an easy argument to shoot down.
The real issue is that the gap between 20" and 24" is massive. And it's ludicrous that adult BMX'ers have had to choose between tiny 20" wheels or kinda-cumbersome 24"s for so long now. I do NOT think 22"s are a genius invention, they're not even an invention. They're just a necessary adjustment that feel instantly comfortable to ride. Every other 2" increment bmx size is widely supported EXCEPT for 22". There are 10", 12", 14", 16", 18", 20", 24", 26", 29" and you might also include 700c with the nex fixie freestyle guys. I frankly wonder how many 18" wheel bikes Hoffman sells. Most parents with a little kid want to pay less than $100 at a big box store on a bike that size.
but the reality of the industry is that BMX is small and relatively unprofitable branch (compared to "adult" bikes) and this is a small segment of that small market, its hard to see how we could ever get the tyre manufacturers (who need huge numbers) excited about it... "hey on a few years we might get 10% of 5% of your sales, so that is half a percent of what you make?!?!?!"
Somehow, the original dreamers and innovators in BMX, were not dissuaded from pursuing their ideas. 14mm axles, freecoasters, Potts mod, heat treated tubing and axles, pegs that didn't strip out, front-brake 990's, re-designed gyros . . . so many ideas in BMX were just ideas that some riders had. They often started out as rigged homemade modifications. Well, right now, riders are getting 22"s homemade/custom-made.
I don't claim to have all the answers to the tire question, but I will continue to pursue them.
Even though FACTION are not part of the inner clique of the BMX industry . . . I respect what they've done (put their personal money behind a good idea) way more than some of the current BMX companies who just offer 20 colors of exactly the same part that every other BMX company is making.
Once again, I do highly respect you and your opinions, so this is not meant as a personal attack.
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I'm holding out for S&M.
I think they have the power to get molds made for good tires. They sell a TON of complete bikes, Chris needs to talk to one of the tire manufactures and tell them he's going to use a different supplier/manufacture for all of his tires if they don't help with the cost of a new 22 inch tire mold.....
I'm super stoked for 22 inch bmx bikes. I love my 20 and 24 but they don't ride the same.
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Wish I knew someone with one so I could try one. I'm 6'4 & I want to buy a 21"+ frame but it WILL NOT have a & 13.7" or less rear end. I can manual my 14" all day & I don't even weigh a lot.
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I think you are missing what I am trying to say. Let me rephrase it.
Tyres are a real pain. PERIOD.
Doing any tyre is hard. 20" 24" 26" etc. It isnt something that you can set up to do in small volume in your garage like most other bike parts.
If someone asked us to do 22" rims or forks or frames or spokes it really wouldnt be a huge problem. We might lose money on it but we could do it.
When it comes to tyres there are practicalities of dealing with the factories that make them. They have huge production lines set up and they have machines set to each size of tyre that they like to leave set to those sizes so that they are consistant.
There are two basic tyre assembly machines/jigs and the basic ones make basic tyres and the fancy ones make fancy tyres.
It was hard getting the fancy machine for 20" and cheaper tyres are still made on the basic machine.
My opinion... is that getting the tyre manufacturers to set up fancy machines for 22" is going to be very hard. They will reason that people will either buy 20" or 22" and that there will be no net change to their sales volume, and these people dont listen to Fugazi.
I keep harping back to it, but the 29" situation is a good guide. 29" tyres can be assembled (this is prior to moulding the shape) on the same machine as a 700c road tyre. So they already have everything set up for the beads and assembly. All you need is a new mold and boom, done. MTB is also a massive market and there is way more competition between tyre making factories. Yet it still took a long time to get going...
I mention doing all the other sizes because I am a big believer in experimentation. I wasnt putting it up as an extreme example, I would genuinely like to do it. But if the 20" tyres are beautifully made then they will seem better than the 21" prototypes and that would skew the results. Much in engineering is how it is for stupid reasons and it irks me. Road bikes use 700c wheels because the UCI makes it mandatory. Can you imagine how much bikes would have advanced in the last 100 years if riders had been free to ride anything? Would we now be seeing fully suspended 20" wheeled recumbents competing against Graham Obree inspired uprights and fully faired Lotus bikes by Mike Burrows in the Tour de France? Might make for a much more interesting tour when one bike excels on the flat and another is better uphill and yet another downhill.
As I say, I love my 24" and I would love to do more 24" tyres, and I would love to try 22", but I am afraid that the deck is stacked against 22" in a way that it isn't against 24" and until I actually ride one (and more than a couple of older legends try it), I also worry that 22" is equally as likely to be the worst of both worlds as it is to be the Goldilocks zone...
:)
G.
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...even if we did the factories dont have the better machines for this size, its a catch 22...
Hehe...
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no thanks to 22"
more power to whoever for tryin to explore it, but i feel 24" area should be supported ahead of such
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Guise, Odyssey wont be doing 22" tires. We should all quit dreaming of riding a 22".
Please close this thread, Kthanxbye...
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i want to get an amero
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new rumor. Odyssey/G sport are fully against 22 inch bikes and are single handedly preventing them from entering the market. hee hee :D
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So, turns out that there ARE tires made by someone other than Faction for 22 inch bikes. They might not be the best but they do work. Some are rated at 100PSI so they can't be too poorly made.
Having ridden a 22 inch bike, I can say that these things are going to be GREAT for hauling ass but still nimble enough to throw around.
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Rode CMC's rig at the skatepark on Saturday night. It was a pretty wild ride. Feebles!!!!!
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I'm holding out for S&M.
FUCK YEA!!!!!!!
BOOOM!!!
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Feb%2006%2C%209%2040%2005%20PM.jpg)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Feb%2003%2C%203%2050%2044%20PM.jpg)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Feb%2006%2C%209%2038%2029%20PM.jpg)
S&M prototype. They had the made rims custom. They have Fit and Revenge tires coming soon. Shit just got real!
I threw slam bars and a redneck stem on it. Thing is SICK!
21.5
14.5
74.5
12.125
I don't know what kind of garbage G was spewing about getting tires made... once again, chris moeller steps up and gets shit done. and done RIGHT.
Can't wait to see what the final product looks/rides like.
:cheers:
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How very professional of you to call the info George gave you 'garbage'
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i think what george was saying was that sunday/odyssey didnt think it would be worthwhile making 22" tyres as the market is so niche. if S&M are now making more frames for that wheelsize, then they are more actively creating that market. faction helped get the ball rolling but the bmx world has hardly jumped on 22" bikes like crazy, it still seems a very niche section of bmx
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Fair play to them if they do make 22" tyres but for most bmx companies money put into a mold for a 22" tyre for a niche market is money that could be put into a mold for a 20" market with obviously a massive consumer base
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I'm far from a pro. Just some guy who is testing a bicycle.....
I do have HUGE respect for G/Odyssey however, the way G was talking he was all but shutting this thing down. Sure it's a niche market but if one company is making the tires, they'd be getting all the sales. Looks like those sales will be going to Fit/Revenge....
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i dont think he was shutting it down, just talking about his experience with regards to 22" tyres. if s&m are making some decent tyres in that size then its awesome for guys like you who are looking for decent parts in that wheel size
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I'm far from a pro. Just some guy who is testing a bicycle.....
I do have HUGE respect for G/Odyssey however, the way G was talking he was all but shutting this thing down. Sure it's a niche market but if one company is making the tires, they'd be getting all the sales. Looks like those sales will be going to Fit/Revenge....
No mention of Revenge tyres, but they are making Fit FAF's.
http://www.plussizebmx.com/blog/2012/2/7/news-prototype-sm-22-wheeled-frame.html (http://www.plussizebmx.com/blog/2012/2/7/news-prototype-sm-22-wheeled-frame.html)
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FUCK YEA!!!!!!!
BOOOM!!!
S&M prototype.
wow, that looks sweet ! there is definitely something DirtBike/Holmes-ish about it.
i just ordered a S&M 22" fork and then . . . a custom frame from STOUT.
http://stoutbikes.blogspot.com/ (http://stoutbikes.blogspot.com/)
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apparently, this was a recent e-mail response from S&M regarding 22" wheels:
"We are working on complete wheels, tubes and tires and should have them in 90-120 days from now but I can get you a more accurate date in about 30 days if you want to e-mail me again then."
see:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=374461&p=4 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=374461&p=4)
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Awesome
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Yep. How soon until we see Odyssey tires/rims? :D
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I just emailed Moeller to see if he will do an interview about the new 22" stuff. He briefly mentioned he was riding a 22" a while back and it didn't even click to me that he was making the stuff. Let me know if you guys have any questions you want me to ask him.
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22" dirtbike is the obvious candidate
22" mainline also a possibility?
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man id quite fancy a 22" complete just to see what its like. be a cunt getting one to australia though, until im working and can afford shipping
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Seems to me that some of the 22 inch rims are actually coming from Australia. It seems like there'd be a bike there that you could test out.....?
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Oz is a biiiig country dude
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Moeller is down to answer some questions. Drop them in here and I'll try and work them in. Trying to get this sent over by tonight so act fast.
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What changes will there be from the prototype to the final product?
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Oz is a biiiig country dude
word. if i track one down in perth im deffos having a go though. always wanted to have a try of a sunday model c as well but never got the chance
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Saw a picture on my buddy from Iowa's facebook page. He has a custom made Standard 22" just made. His looks pretty dope. And his geo/set up (based just on looks) seems to be something I would be into more than CMC's 22". CMC likes taller bars than I do. I actually just put the 7 1/4" bars back on my Model C.
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Saw a picture on my buddy from Iowa's facebook page. He has a custom made Standard 22" just made. His looks pretty dope. And his geo/set up (based just on looks) seems to be something I would be into more than CMC's 22". CMC likes taller bars than I do. I actually just put the 7 1/4" bars back on my Model C.
yo B, u should check out Vernon's 22 some time as well!
http://www.plussizebmx.com/blog/2011/11/7/bike-check-indust-2-ton-22.html (http://www.plussizebmx.com/blog/2011/11/7/bike-check-indust-2-ton-22.html)
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http://www.bmxunion.com/blog/interview/insight-sm-22-bikes/
Interview with Moeller about the 22" bikes S&M / Revenge is doing. Frame, fork, rims, tires and spokes.
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I just clicked that on Facebook and clicked it again on here. I'm smart.
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Kurt, the Union is awesome. Keep up the good work.
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Real nice!
can someone post that pic of Closser here? This thread needs more action shots.
Curious what changes they're thinking about. That prototype rides amazingly well, as is.
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I'm far from a pro. Just some guy who is testing a bicycle.....
I do have HUGE respect for G/Odyssey however, the way G was talking he was all but shutting this thing down. Sure it's a niche market but if one company is making the tires, they'd be getting all the sales. Looks like those sales will be going to Fit/Revenge....
This really was not my intention, please re-read what I wrote and try to see where I am really coming from.
As I already stated many times, I would LIKE to see this size develop and have a chance to prove itself. I then went on to try to have a mature conversation about whether I thought it was likely and I (stupidly it turns out) thought that people might be interested in what I see as the manufacturing pitfalls and also the potential performance pitfall. 22" could be better than 20" but the difference between a good tyre and a bad one could easily be enough to hide a lot of benefits...
I have been to tyre factories. I have seen the equipment used. I have had senior staff at the factory slag off their own "basic" assembly machines and then 2 minutes later asked them which machines make our 20" tyres and have them look sheepish and explain that it WAS the "basic" machines he just slagged off. (thankfully this has changed now and there are 20" versions of the "super duper" machines and it is these that have made OUR tyres for the last several years (3 or 4) and the quality has gone up and the QC rejection rate down as a result).
I think of this as "interesting information about how tyres are made", you somehow see it as an attack on the 22" size.
I KNOW that if WE walked into the factory and said we wanted to do a 22" tyre that we would have them try to talk us out of it for some considerable time. I realise that you may think that Odyssey is a big company, but to these tyre makers we are "small potatoes", we make a few thousand tyres a year in their factory that makes MILLIONS of other tyres, they do not want to make investments in new machines if they even VAGUELY think that it is not going to become HUGE. They would NOT be stoked on it and as a project it would probably not go well for us.... However I think that S&M/Fit ordered some improbably huge number of tyres last year so they may have got a better reception than I imagine... If so then that is great. If the tyre makers are cool with doing the size and either already have or set-up good machines for the assembly then I will have been proved totally wrong and I will be more than happy to say so... and yes we might even "jump on the bandwagon" and make parts for the size.
My point has always been that rims, frames, forks, spokes, tubes etc are all easy, it all hinges on the tyres, so if that is sorted then there is no reason it cant become super popular and maybe even take over from 20" as 29" is being predicted to do from 26" in MTB (though personally I will be sticking with 26" for a while yet).
I thought long and hard after typing this before posting it. I really dont want to further enrage you, I have better things to do, but at the same time I feel like there is an interesting conversation to be had here and I think it is worth one last crack at having it. I hope this makes sense and seems reasonable...
:)
G.
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:cheers:
It's all good, G. :)
and there's no doubt in my mind that we'll see 22 inch Odyssey tires/rims one day.
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Haha, that article is awesome.... Shows how far BMX has come... at least we dont have to worry about what race category it fits into...
The article also mentions having different sized front and rear wheels, something that motorbikes often do (did?) been tried on MTB's too... slightly smaller back wheel would allow shorter stays and front would still monster truck over stuff.... ah the possibilities are endless...
Right I am off to design a mountainbike with a 29" front wheel and 22" rear... ;)
:)
G.
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Right I am off to design a mountainbike with a 29" front wheel and 22" rear... ;)
:)
G.
I'll take two.
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Damn!
I guess that S&M was almost stolen! Guy broke into the shop that it was at, stole a bunch of S&M parts as well as that bike! As he was leaving the shop, the police dogs caught him. He's in jail now and the bike is safe.
Never should have let it out of my site.....
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Love when I find a thread about 22's and my bike has already beaten me to it!
That '83 article is great, those are the exact tires I have on my ride, the Kenda 22x2 snakebellies -- cool to see what they were on BITD
-Manny
for some historical perspective..... kevin jones sent me a link to this article about the 1983 Aerolite 22"...
this is Manny's customized 22"wheel Trick Star over on bmxmuseum. he used nos Kenda tires.
(http://serious4x4.smugmug.com/photos/i-N4738fC/0/L/i-N4738fC-L.jpg)
...
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Kurt, the Union is awesome. Keep up the good work.
Thanks! Appreciate all the support!
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I have seen the equipment used. I have had senior staff at the factory slag off their own "basic" assembly machines and then 2 minutes later asked them which machines make our 20" tyres and have them look sheepish and explain that it WAS the "basic" machines he just slagged off. (thankfully this has changed now and there are 20" versions of the "super duper" machines and it is these that have made OUR tyres for the last several years (3 or 4) and the quality has gone up and the QC rejection rate down as a result).
Can we go back to the basic machines and £11.50 tires please?
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Can we go back to the basic machines and £11.50 tires please?
Not unless you can get oil back down to $60 a barrel and all other raw materials to follow suit...
How much is a loaf of bread now compared to then? Price increase is about the same...
The better machines are quicker and produce less rejects, so the extra cost of buying them is about balanced by the savings, we just get better tyres..
:)
G.
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Not unless you can get oil back down to $60 a barrel and all other raw materials to follow suit...
I'll try my best.
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tubes are available on Amazon.com:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PFVJmfhkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
we have one of these at our shop for some reason, i think it was accidentally ordered. I remember asking myself "what the hell kinda mutant wal-mart bike does this fit in?", i guess i got my answer.
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Inner tubes have a lot of stretch and forgiveness, I would guess that in a pinch you can use 20" tubes with no problems.
:)
G.
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I'm pretty sure I remember people using 18inch tubes in bmx to save weight or something ludicrous
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i want to get an amero
here's joel's amero. with good rear triangle design a 22" tire can fit well in a 13.5"cs.....
(http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=104282&stc=1&d=1309189322)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/my-faction-amero-243420/ (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/my-faction-amero-243420/)
here's bean22's Amero compared with the 22" fork on his 20" Standard Trail Boss (custom 22"tt).
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3756833&viewfull=1#post3756833 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3756833&viewfull=1#post3756833)
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thanks cmc
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speedracer's STANDARD 22" gettin built up! :
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/VRMAWC/c97507f7.jpg)
from:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3399941#p3399941 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3399941#p3399941)
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speedracer's STANDARD 22" gettin built up! :
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/VRMAWC/c97507f7.jpg)
from:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3399941#p3399941 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3399941#p3399941)
OMG so nice man
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here's joel's amero. with good rear triangle design a 22" tire can fit well in a 13.5"cs.....
Wow, I feel like 13.75 is too short on my 20 inch, so I run my back end at 14. I can't imagine what 13.5 would feel like with bigger tires.
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Wow, I feel like 13.75 is too short on my 20 inch, so I run my back end at 14. I can't imagine what 13.5 would feel like with bigger tires.
from having different bikes to compare, my impression is that the wheel size matters as to how "quick" the front end pulls up, even if the cs lengths are the same. like, for example, i have a Liquid Feedback 24"-wheel bike with a 14.25"cs; I also have a 20" with a 14.25"cs (a mid-school Homeless Mack). Despite the cs's being the same, the 20" still pulls up a LOT quicker. if you think about the axle as a pivot point, a smaller diameter wheel will react quicker with other things being equal. on the flipside imagine putting a 16" wheel on your regular 20". even if you put the axle in the same place, the front end will pull up quicker.... so . . . a 22" wheel, but with a shorter cs, will actually balance out.....
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Uhm, actually I think that has more to do with bottom bracket height relative to the axel line. If you have two bikes with the same length cs and same bb height relative to the axels, then it should pull up the same.
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it's good to have options, right?
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i love the way a 24 feels on pumping carving stuff... but no matter how high I go on ramps it feels like im barely out. A 22 would be awesome I bet.
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I've been reading the 22" discussions for a couple years. I think they are a great idea and could possibly revive racing as a new class. Anyone that has ridden a 24 at the trails knows they jump with less effort and offer a smoother ride...but they're a bit goofy. A 22 would fill the gap and you could use parts from a 20 or 24.
Since most of the people buying 22's will most likely be over the age of 25, we can assume they have a higher income, and can afford to pay $40 for a tire (tire price seems to be the issue here). I actually go through tires faster on my dirt bike than bmx bike, and they're $100 + .
As G said, tires are the issue. It would be smart of all the companies that want to participate in 22 inch bikes, to create a partnership, pool funds, and have tires made as one big group. Then as numbers increase, they can break off and do their own thing. Suzuki and Kawasaki teamed up to create a competitive 4 stroke motocross engine, so S&M, Odyssey, and Standard can come together to make an affordable 22 inch tire.
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That would be cool! I rode one of the first 22 faction bikes a while back, and even though the geometry was a bit off with a slack ass head angle, it was really fun.
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Odyssey needs to call S&M and make a deal. S&M has buying power like you would not believe. All that has been missing in this 22 inch game is someone with the buying power to believe in it.
22's aren't going away anytime soon. I personally would be more than happy if I never pedaled my 20 ever again. big dubs, big(er) wheels. let's roll....
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Uhm, actually I think that has more to do with bottom bracket height relative to the axel line. If you have two bikes with the same length cs and same bb height relative to the axels, then it should pull up the same.
you're right that bb height relative axle line does matter on how quick the front end pulls up. BUT it also matters what wheel diameter. i've experimented with this several times.
see: http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360)
imagine you put some 16"s on your regular 20" bike, see how it feels. or even,the extreme case, let's say you put a couple of large roller-blade sized wheels in your regular 20" BMX frame in the same dropout spots you normally bolt down the axles. the bike is going to pull up quicker becuase the pivoting around the tiny roller blade wheel's axle (3" diameter) is going to be very quick. if you were trying to manual on those tiny 3" diameter wheels, you would have to do really quick adjustments.... does that make sense?
btw, bean22"s faction amero next to a custom 22" top tube STANDARD Trail Boss:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3371046#p3371046 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3371046#p3371046)
:dunno:
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you're right that bb height relative axle line does matter on how quick the front end pulls up. BUT it also matters what wheel diameter. i've experimented with this several times.
see: http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360)
imagine you put some 16"s on your regular 20" bike, see how it feels. or even,the extreme case, let's say you put a couple of large roller-blade sized wheels in your regular 20" BMX frame in the same dropout spots you normally bolt down the axles. the bike is going to pull up quicker becuase the pivoting around the tiny roller blade wheel's axle (3" diameter) is going to be very quick. if you were trying to manual on those tiny 3" diameter wheels, you would have to do really quick adjustments.... does that make sense?
btw, bean22"s faction amero next to a custom 22" top tube STANDARD Trail Boss:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360)
:dunno:
Those are some good points...especially seeing the Faction next to the custom trail boss. I wouldn't mind trying 22's on my old TRLS 250 that has a 14.25 rear end and 21 inch TT.
I also think that the current 20 inch bike isn't that far from a 22. With tires being so big, we're pretty much riding 21's.
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you're right that bb height relative axle line does matter on how quick the front end pulls up. BUT it also matters what wheel diameter. i've experimented with this several times.
see: http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3369360#p3369360)
imagine you put some 16"s on your regular 20" bike, see how it feels. or even,the extreme case, let's say you put a couple of large roller-blade sized wheels in your regular 20" BMX frame in the same dropout spots you normally bolt down the axles. the bike is going to pull up quicker becuase the pivoting around the tiny roller blade wheel's axle (3" diameter) is going to be very quick. if you were trying to manual on those tiny 3" diameter wheels, you would have to do really quick adjustments.... does that make sense?
btw, bean22"s faction amero next to a custom 22" top tube STANDARD Trail Boss:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3371046#p3371046 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3371046#p3371046)
:dunno:
I agree that if you put rollerblade wheels on a bmx that manualing would be a lot twitchier, but that would be due to the decreasing of weight off the front end, not because you are pivoting around a smaller tire. You pivot around the axle, not the tire. Your axle doesn't know how big your tire is.
Where's George to bring some physics knowledge into this???
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I think the other guys right, Bunky.
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The bottom bracket height issue will be trial and error. I have a 24 and the bb sits lower than the rear axle line (maybe 11.5 inches or something). Pulling up and hopping take a lot of work, but once you lock in a manual it feels like you have a wheelie bar keeping you there. I wish the bb was a little higher.
As wheel size increases, the bb should be more in line with the axle line. I think 11.75 would be a good starting point for a 22.
*I looked up the specs on Danny MacAskills frame and the bb is "+10mm" or about 0.40 inches above the axle line. So thats a 12.4" bb height on a 24. Just sayin.
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man, both of you, bunky and jared, are saying good stuff. i still can't quite wrap my head around the 'physics' of it (bunky you're exactly right the "lever" is the same; the contact point with rear tire up to axle is key... so why should circumference of wheel matter?? but somehow it feels like it does??? ) . i've ridden my buddy Vernon's InDust 2Ton 22" bike with a 14"cs http://www.plussizebmx.com/blog/2011/11/7/bike-check-indust-2-ton-22.html (http://www.plussizebmx.com/blog/2011/11/7/bike-check-indust-2-ton-22.html) and it does not feel as quick as a 20" wheel bike with 14"cs. yes it's quick, but not thaaaat quick. i'll have to go out and experiment again on my different bikes tomorrow. jared, you're definitely right, sometimes "locking in" to manuals is more important--(look at bmx race bikes with long cs's for high-speed and over-roller manuals or mtbmx26"s with minimal bb drop and short cs's....) in the meantime:
i added this little triangle in photoshop to illustrate manual balance points for some how-to thread a while back ... i can't quite put my finger on it, but with my experience with bigger wheeled bikes (22, 24, 26), i feel like there's still a 'wheel effect.'
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/manual--triangle.jpg)
and for big wheel + short mtb chainstay (like 15-15.5) + small bb drop perspective witness this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoWpqzabhpc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoWpqzabhpc)
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i feel like there's still a 'wheel effect.'
There is. There isn't much but it is there. Think of rocking on rocking chairs with various radius rockers.
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The 'wheel effect' matters for the side to side balance point in manuals and going round corners and stuff - the pivot point for side to side is where the wheel meets the ground
With the up and down motion you and the bike revolve around the axle NOT where the wheel makes contact with the ground
However it's pretty much impossible to manual properly without adjusting weight in all directions (same as riding along in a straight line isn't actually straight) so there is a difference in wheel size with same length chainstays
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IF you had a perfectly smooth rolling hub, then the bike would only really pivot around the hub axle as long as you stay off the brake, but as soon as you start touching the brake it will start to roll around the tyre as well. So any friction in the hub (hubs are very smooth but not perfect, and when you are balancing you may notice this, especially if there is significant drag in your driver say if it is a bushing one rather than one with proper rolling element bearings and you run a tight chain) will be a similar effect.
:)
G.
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IF you had a perfectly smooth rolling hub, then the bike would only really pivot around the hub axle as long as you stay off the brake, but as soon as you start touching the brake it will start to roll around the tyre as well. . . . .
That sounds true . . . but I would add any time you are off the balance point, that will happen. Rather than talk about manuals, let's look at peg wheelies and hang 5's (or any other flatland peg trick). You are standing on the axle. I have ridden flatland on 24"s. www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQA2E71iWUE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQA2E71iWUE) It's harder to get up into the hang 5; once you're fully locked in it's not any different, but any time you make an adjustment, it's slower.
And . . . to get this thread back to 22"s, here's my buddy Vernon on his InDust 2Ton 22". He's getting a short run of 4 more frames made right now; they're almost done. Can't wait to ride one.
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/austinmtbbmxalliance/Vernon_wall.jpg)
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But even using the brake your pivot point is still around the axle?
The bushing in a driver shouldn't have an effect whilst manualling, only the spring/pawl set up?
Tha hang 5 thing, maybe cause there is marginally more weight further away from the rider than a smaller wheel?
Actually thinking about it maybe a bigger size wheel of similar weight has more angular momentum (gyroscope)?
I kinda like the look of 22" bikes
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Actually thinking about it maybe a bigger size wheel of similar weight has more angular momentum (gyroscope)?
Right, time to leave the internet.
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But even using the brake your pivot point is still around the axle?
The bushing in a driver shouldn't have an effect whilst manualling, only the spring/pawl set up?
Tha hang 5 thing, maybe cause there is marginally more weight further away from the rider than a smaller wheel?
Actually thinking about it maybe a bigger size wheel of similar weight has more angular momentum (gyroscope)?
I kinda like the look of 22" bikes
Imagine locking up the back wheel, the bike will then be like a solid lump and roll around the tyre.
You are absolutely right, the boshing wont matter, just the pawl drag as you say... dont know what I was thinking...
When you make a correction in either a hang 5 or a manual you do so because your centre of gravity is no longer over the contact point. When you correct you shove your weight back towards the contact patch, but you also pull the bike back under you. So weight and momentum will be "felt", however until you brake or add drag I dont think that the specific radius is important except as so far as it effects rolling and momentum.
I do love my 24"
:)
G.
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(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/austinmtbbmxalliance/Vernon_wall.jpg)
Trail pirate!!! Hippie is the man! That's it I am getting a the S&M or Indust 22 this summer.
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Amero looks nice and will be available soon. But it only has clearance for a 26t chainwheel.
(http://www.factionbikeco.com/controlblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/amero-frame-and-wheels.jpg)
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Amero looks nice and will be available soon. But it only has clearance for a 26t chainwheel.
that's not uncommon with bigger wheeled bikes that also have short chainstays. (they have to bow out to accept the wheel that close to the bottom bracket). the Liquid Feedback 24" is the same. the Sunday Wave C 24" as well if I'm not mistaken.
check this out. just a little experiment as I'm waiting for my custom frame. an S&M 22" fork and 22" wheels on a We The People Avenger 24" frame (same geo as 1st gen Model C--21.25"tt, 13.75"bb). the shorter fork drops the bb a bit, but it still looks like a good height. and the head angle is not as affected as i thought it might be. it looks highly rideable. of course the brakes won't line up and you're not getting the benefit of a shorter cs designed around a 22" wheel.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/WTP_Avenger_with_22inchwheels_and_Pitchfork002.jpg)
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that's not uncommon with bigger wheeled bikes that also have short chainstays. (they have to bow out to accept the wheel that close to the bottom bracket). the Liquid Feedback 24" is the same. the Sunday Wave C 24" as well if I'm not mistaken.
check this out. just a little experiment as I'm waiting for my custom frame. an S&M 22" fork and 22" wheels on a We The People Avenger 24" frame (same geo as 1st gen Model C--21.25"tt, 13.75"bb). the shorter fork drops the bb a bit, but it still looks like a good height. and the head angle is not as affected as i thought it might be. it looks highly rideable. of course the brakes won't line up and you're not getting the benefit of a shorter cs designed around a 22" wheel.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/WTP_Avenger_with_22inchwheels_and_Pitchfork002.jpg)
that looks great! Do adaptors exist to make the brake work?
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that's not uncommon with bigger wheeled bikes that also have short chainstays. (they have to bow out to accept the wheel that close to the bottom bracket). the Liquid Feedback 24" is the same. the Sunday Wave C 24" as well if I'm not mistaken.
The WaveC will take a 28tooth no problem.
It is obviously important to allow for wheel size, so the 26t on a 22" is equivalent to a 28.6 tooth on a 20".
And the 28tooth on the 24" Sunday is equivalent to 30.5 on a 22" or 33.6 on a 20" ... which should be plenty for anyone.
I have a 22tooth on mine but its pretty hilly here.
:)
G.
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The WaveC will take a 28tooth no problem.
It is obviously important to allow for wheel size, so the 26t on a 22" is equivalent to a 28.6 tooth on a 20".
And the 28tooth on the 24" Sunday is equivalent to 30.5 on a 22" or 33.6 on a 20" ... which should be plenty for anyone.
I have a 22tooth on mine but its pretty hilly here.
:)
G.
I like to run as close to 55 gear inches as possible.. on my 20" I run 36x13 on my model c I run 30x13. When I rode Taj's proto wave c and then later Jim C's wave c the main reason I didn't upgrade from the model c to the wave c is the lack of chainwheel clearance.
I like big chainwheels and big cogs not tall gearing. I don't like wearing out my drivetrain quickly and also deal with massive tight/loose spots.
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I like to run as close to 55 gear inches as possible.. on my 20" I run 36x13 on my model c I run 30x13. When I rode Taj's proto wave c and then later Jim C's wave c the main reason I didn't upgrade from the model c to the wave c is the lack of chainwheel clearance.
I like big chainwheels and big cogs not tall gearing. I don't like wearing out my drivetrain quickly and also deal with massive tight/loose spots.
You cant have everything. We worked very hard to get good tyre and sprocket clearance and still have a nice strong back end that wouldn't twist or bend. Hence the wishbone and rectangular to round tapered (and dent resistant) chainstays. Seriously a lot of work went into them. If you are happy with the longer chainstay then stick with the frame you have, but personally I love the slightly shorter stays and 22/10 works great for me. The difference between a 9 tooth and a 10 is fairly substantial (in terms of chordal action etc) however the difference between a 10 and a 13 is pretty small.
http://chain-guide.com/basics/2-2-1-chordal-action.html (the difference between 9 and 8 is obviously enormous).
:)
G.
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I really like that the model c has a longer cs. I appreciate all of the work you guys put into the 24. When I talked to the profile guys about an 11t elite driver they gave that wtf look. Apparently nobody asked for them before... 28x12 could work for me if I ever get a wave c.
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the latest InDust 22" (one of 3 made in this run) . . . .
* All SuperTherm. 5 lbs. 0.6 ounces.
* 21.75"tt, 14"cs (to center of 14mm axle slammed), 12 1/8" bb height
* Front Eclat hub & Velocity rim.
* rear Faction Zeitgeist stock wheel
* Profile 180mm's raw, S&M 28t spline drive sprocket
* S&M top loader stem, S&M Grand Slam XLT bars
* S&M custom 22" fork
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Indust22-smallpic--CMC.jpg)
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How's she ride? headtube looks steep. what're the angles?
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Amero looks nice and will be available soon. But it only has clearance for a 26t chainwheel.
(http://www.factionbikeco.com/controlblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/amero-frame-and-wheels.jpg)
wonder how much these kits will cost?
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Vernon's InDust 22" built up. ... :
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p125/nonrev1981/newIndust22.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3525380#p3525380 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3525380#p3525380)
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Vernon's InDust 22" built up. ... :
Very nice! I am holding out for the 22 holmes but if it isn't released in a couple months I think I will go for the indust.
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Hell Yea!
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posted on S&M's facebook the other day:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/chester_SM_22.jpg)
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Vernon's InDust 22" built up. ... :
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p125/nonrev1981/newIndust22.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3525380#p3525380 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3525380#p3525380)
BB still felt kinda low for my taste. If you grew up with a racing backround I could see how you would really like this geo. And like Vern mentioned, his front tire is crazy tall so it does raise the BB height a little bit.
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I know there is some cross over viewing between this thread and the RM one but if you don't visit that site...
Holmes should be available by August.
We just shipped it back to Moeller so he could get some testing on it. (I thought they had made two but sounds like one went 'missing'...) Moeller had both of his Femurs replaced(!!!) so he's been recovering from that/not riding.
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Speaking of low BB... Has anyone ridden that Speedball line at Eastside on one of these bikes?
I'd be curious how a low BB bike feels at those speeds.
Or how would something like the Wave C feel at those speeds...(super high BB)
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Speaking of low BB... Has anyone ridden that Speedball line at Eastside on one of these bikes?
I'd be curious how a low BB bike feels at those speeds.
Or how would something like the Wave C feel at those speeds...(super high BB)
Don't think there has been too many big wheeled bikes riding Speed Ball. There is one local there named Patrick who rides a 26". I never saw him hit Speed Ball though, but not saying he didn't.
I rode my Model C out there for like 6 laps through main line until I crashed and broke my back and wrist. For the few runs I did make it through, it was AMAZING! Still haven't won the war in my mind to take another lap out there. One day though...
I have hit a line at a different Austin spot called 4 Loko. It is a fast down hill line that ends up in a super tall right hip. I don't even like to ride my 20" out there anymore because the 24" feels so bad ass.
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BB still felt kinda low for my taste. If you grew up with a racing backround I could see how you would really like this geo. And like Vern mentioned, his front tire is crazy tall so it does raise the BB height a little bit.
Yeah, as an XL trails frame we did want the feeling to be more "in" the bike rather than above it. Yet the bb is still 1.125" above axle level. (And its taller than the Zeitgeist's +0.75"). So it's not 'low' like when you're talking about race 24"s that have the bb at axle level. The first 2ton proto was 1.5" above axle. That raw Standard a few pages back had 12.5bb as well, and I think the Amero does too. I definitely appreciate the Model C and Wave C with 1.75" above axle level as freestyle 24"s, especially with big bars they feel awesome to me. It will be cool to see the different versions or approaches to 22" geos and setups.
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I guess my question was something along the lines of....
Does a lower BB make much difference at higher speeds (I just assuming that Speedball is wicked fast?) vs. a higher BB at slower speeds. One being more stable and one being less stable/easier to flick/hop....?
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Charlie (from bmxmuseum) built up a sweet STANDARD 22". His has +1.5" bb rise (12.5"bb) and 21" top tube. Killer!
(http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz171/teachbmxcharlie/DSC00134-1.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3534258#p3534258 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3534258#p3534258)
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sickness!
21 TT seems crazy small. toe clearance? my 20 inch bmx is longer than that..... :p
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sickness!
21 TT seems crazy small. toe clearance? my 20 inch bmx is longer than that..... :p
may be a little short for trails after you're used to longer frames, but i could still see it feeling amazing as an all-around bike. would love to check it out. toe clearance shouldnt be an issue because the front wheel is only an inch bigger in each direction, so it would be a very similar toe clearance as a 20" with 20"tt.
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Charlie (from bmxmuseum) built up a sweet STANDARD 22". His has +1.5" bb rise (12.5"bb) and 21" top tube. Killer!
(http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz171/teachbmxcharlie/DSC00134-1.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3534258#p3534258 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3534258#p3534258)
Nice.
Good to see that they didn't dimple/ruin the chainstays on that. Any idea on Chainstay length?
:)
G.
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I fucking hate how people make these bigger bikes, and put smaller bars on them. Like they should be the same height as a 20" for some bizarre reason. Make that shit HUGE, 12 inch bars and it'd be a giant BMX instead of some shit that's impossible to bunnyhop like a 20incher.
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That Standard looks nice.
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I fucking hate how people make these bigger bikes, and put smaller bars on them. Like they should be the same height as a 20" for some bizarre reason. Make that shit HUGE, 12 inch bars and it'd be a giant BMX instead of some shit that's impossible to bunnyhop like a 20incher.
heh heh, do you even ride a 24"? but, yeah, a lot of guys are already running full size bars on 22"s and 24"s.
Chester with the S&M proto 22" with Perfect 10"s:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Jun%2012%2C%207%2019%2008%20PM.jpg)
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Jun%2012%2C%207%2016%2051%20PM.jpg)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3797143&viewfull=1#post3797143 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3797143&viewfull=1#post3797143)
i tried Perfect 10"s on my Liquid Feedback 24", but they were too tall. some guys are running 6"s on the Liquid but most are running 8"s.
my Liquid bike
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/my-liquid-bike-227386/ (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f61/my-liquid-bike-227386/)
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I fucking hate how people make these bigger bikes, and put smaller bars on them. Like they should be the same height as a 20" for some bizarre reason. Make that shit HUGE, 12 inch bars and it'd be a giant BMX instead of some shit that's impossible to bunnyhop like a 20incher.
It would be better to use a longer head and steerer tube. We are already pushing what is sensible having 9 and 10 inch bars clamped on a 7/8" tube. Seriously think about the leverage involved. 10" is nearly 23 to 1 ratio, by the time you get enough pressure on the clamp tube to take typical riding forces you are getting very close to crushing the clamp tube and the loads in the tube itself are getting very big...
:)
G.
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I ride 7 1/4" rise bars on my 24" and it feels perfect. Different strokes for different folks. I have tried running 8" bars on my Model C but it just feels too weird to me.
I think I would have liked the feel of CMC's last 22" I rode at House Park if the bars were a tad smaller. But Cullen also has an inch or two on me...
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jcordera's STANDARD 22". !! 2012 is becoming the year of the 22. heh heh.
(http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=5841ff07f00fff2138bd061e7c5b24ec&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ridemonkey.com%2Fforums%2Ff61%2F22-inches-love-feels-just-right-237841%2Findex7%2F&v=1&libid=1340326210860&out=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F599252_10150874945771048_1992468378_n.jpg&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ridemonkey.com%2Fforums%2Ff61%2F&title=22%20inches%20of%20Love%20-%20it%20feels%20just%20right%20-%20Page%207&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-...92468378_n.jpg&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13403262489441)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3800306&viewfull=1#post3800306 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3800306&viewfull=1#post3800306)
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Been running 8.5 bars on my 24 with a topload, I love it. I use to feel back/shoulder pain after a ride, now it's this amazing all over slight ache. Like doing a back work out.
Didn't know that was possible.
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It's all relevant. I run a top load stem with 3/4 inches of spacers and six inch bars. If I flip my stem, remove the spacers and run bigger bars, I get the same height...
I rode that 22 with perfect 10s. They were WAY too tall but Chester loved it. He's also taller then I am....
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It's all relevant. I run a top load stem with 3/4 inches of spacers and six inch bars. If I flip my stem, remove the spacers and run bigger bars, I get the same height...
I rode that 22 with perfect 10s. They were WAY too tall but Chester loved it. He's also taller then I am....
I'm with you.. I plan to run 8" slams on whatever 22" bike I pickup. Can't wait for the holmes.
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. . . Can't wait for the holmes.
sick !
(http://www.sandmbikes.com/images/products/holmes22-lg.jpg)
http://www.sandmbikes.com/all-products/frames/frame-holmes-22 (http://www.sandmbikes.com/all-products/frames/frame-holmes-22)
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21.25 huh?
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21.25 huh?
Yeah, it also states a shorter cs than the proto. (Proto was 14.5", right ? Was that slammed ? )
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pretty sure that was slammed, yea.
Can't wait to ride one of these final models.
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Just ordered the Holmes... frame, fork and wheels. Does anyone know what driver comes stock (wasn't listed)? I like to stay around 55 gear inches so by my calculations that would be about 25x10.
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whoa. the wheels are complete? I thought they were just rims.
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whoa. the wheels are complete? I thought they were just rims.
Ya I was told they are 160 retail for the set?! I had the lbs double check to make sure they specified 22" wheels. The rims are double walled and he showed me on some fit completes what the revenge hubs and rims will be. Look solid to me. Seems too low priced though.
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22" kit, Yeeeeeewww! (http://www.bmxunion.com/blog/daily/product-sm-22-holmes-kit/)
(http://www.bmxunion.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/HOLMES_WEBPOST.jpg)
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22" kit, Yeeeeeewww! (http://www.bmxunion.com/blog/daily/product-sm-22-holmes-kit/)
(http://www.bmxunion.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/HOLMES_WEBPOST.jpg)
My kit should have shipped today!
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I am going to bust out a micrometer tomorrow to figure out the front and rear hub/flange dimensions to see if I can lace up my profile elite's to the rims using the same spokes. If there is interest I can post the measurements.
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I kinda want this. Pretty weird that the frame is almost identical (geo) to my 20" one, just with a 1/2" lower BB.
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This whole thread
That's what she said.
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My kit should have shipped today!
Just out of curiousity - how much did the kit run you?
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Just out of curiousity - how much did the kit run you?
There is a shop on Ebay selling the kits for $699 with free shipping. The kits are frame/fork/wheels/tires/tubes.
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I am going to bust out a micrometer tomorrow to figure out the front and rear hub/flange dimensions to see if I can lace up my profile elite's to the rims using the same spokes. If there is interest I can post the measurements.
I am curious if you can make this happen. Mathematically, it shouldn't be possible to use the same spoke length for a wheel with a bigger ERD using the same cross pattern as on your 20".
Let us know if you get this done.
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I am curious if you can make this happen. Mathematically, it shouldn't be possible to use the same spoke length for a wheel with a bigger ERD using the same cross pattern as on your 20".
Let us know if you get this done.
Pretty sure he's talking about using the spokes from the 22" wheels. Just swapping the hub with the Profile hub.
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The 22" test bike has a 25/9 on it and it feels similar to a 27/9 on a 20". Another one was built with a 27/9 and that gear felt great too. The 22" wheels also have a 9T driver.
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25/9 was way too hard on that bike. I'd rather see a ten tooth driver. But, I'd also just rather get rims and build them up myself.
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I am curious if you can make this happen. Mathematically, it shouldn't be possible to use the same spoke length for a wheel with a bigger ERD using the same cross pattern as on your 20".
Let us know if you get this done.
I will be reusing the spokes. I went to the trails after work today so I haven't gotten the measurements yet.
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212mm spokes with profile hubs, from what I hear.
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212mm spokes with profile hubs, from what I hear.
Yes by my calculations this should be a good size that will work front and back with mini's.
My holmes kit will be delivered tomorrow. I have all my parts laid out and ready to build. Should be riding trails on it by 5pm. I'll post some pics.
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PICS NOW!!!!
:cheers::D
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PICS NOW!!!!
:cheers::D
Sorry I just have blurry cel pics. Better pics to come this weekend.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/376834_3933798384536_1175903151_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/577019_3933799784571_1187286890_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/538866_3933864346185_1395721901_n.jpg)
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Went together in under an hour and rode for two hours tonight. Here are my initial thoughts.
You need a crown race for the pitchfork.. it isn't the race fork it has the x brace and threaded topcap but it doesn't have the intergrated race.
One of the tires had a kink in the steel bead and actually came off the rim. I saved it in time before it totally shredded the bead. I know I put it on correctly.
The bike rode really good and was easier to jump and pump. Very stable. The tires hooked up awesome! The dirt is all hard packed clay but it was a little damp enough where you need some tread.
I am running a profile mullvile with 8" regular slams. Absolutely perfect for a 5'11" guy.
I really like it enough to sell off my 20". Look for a cs steadfast with pitchfork and grand slams on the buy sell she is a keeper!
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x-up toe clearance? Front end doesn't seem too short?
got any beaver shots? I mean, action shots? :)
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Oh I didn't even try. Front end does feel shorter that a 21.25" I will post back in a few about that.
I rode all winter and spring on one of the solid natives they both have the 69 degree st. The holmes feels like the native just bigger.
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xup clearance with size 11 is fine. Even with my foot perfectly flat and ball of foot on the axel of the pedal it doesn't hit. Granted only by 5mm but most of the time your foot isn't flat but angled when xing up so you will have even more clearance.
My buddy's wife has some action pics and video of myself and another rider taking different lines and returning to cross paths almost hitting each other. Missed each other by about a foot and at speed. Bike was more maneuverable than a cruiser definetly closer to my steadfast. I'll post them when I can get them. But I am nothing special just a regular trail rider.
One more crappy pic for the road!
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/304780_3934165193706_179361729_n.jpg)
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I think the bike itself looks nice, but i think its a silly idea, i highly doubt we will be seeing any legit companies putting out 22in specific parts any time soon.
hehehhehehe. the holmes looks rad as fuck man
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Stopped at another spot to ride over lunch today. Meh a little better pics (I will take proper ones this weekend).
Definetly a bike for jumping. Gonna ride some concrete bowls this weekend and then post a bike check w/full review once I lace in my elite hubs and switch to 30x12 this weekend.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/472519_3936360968599_1424260062_o.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/405329_3936461051101_963651382_n.jpg)
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ssteinbr - how tall are you?
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ssteinbr - how tall are you?
5'11". The holmes rides like a 21tt frame with a 71 st angle.
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5'11". The holmes rides like a 21tt frame with a 71 st angle.
Hmm. I'm 6'4 with a 36" inseam. Any idea how that'd feel?
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Hmm. I'm 6'4 with a 36" inseam. Any idea how that'd feel?
I would imagine it would feel small like 20 except the wheels want to keep rolling. The bb is like a vert bike only 1.5" higher than the axels. so whatever bar height you are used to will feel a bit more upright. I have the axel slammed but it looks like I have a good.5 inch or more adjustment. I am going to lace up my elite's tonight ot tomorrow and switch to 30x12 and move the wheel further back in the drop out.
If you have been riding a 20 with a long tt and cs to compensate for your size the bike will feel better but your hands to hip distance will shrink. Not an issue because even slammed it it a bit harder to pull up.
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Hmm. I'm 6'4 with a 36" inseam. Any idea how that'd feel?
For the InDust 2Ton 22" frame that I posted earlier in this thread, http://www.bikeguide.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3557644&postcount=157 (http://www.bikeguide.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3557644&postcount=157) Vernon and I went with a longer front end (21.75") and shorter back end (14"). I'm 6'1", 35.5" inseam. I have a 22.25"tt Liquid Feedback 24" and I've also ridden the 22"tt Liquid and the 22"tt Sunday Wave C 24" . . . and when I rode 20"s, I typically liked 21.5"tt the best, so 21.75"tt seemed to be an ideal size for larger trails frame for 22" wheels. I've got STANDARD 9"s on it right now, which is taller than I used to ride, but I've been experimenting with taller setups and it feels great.
The InDust Cuatro 24" (with 22.3"tt) and the InDust 2Ton 22":
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/InDust_2ton_and_Cuatrov2001.jpg)
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It seems like this new frame is going to feel/be small. My 20 inch is 21 1/8 top tube and I"m 5' 8".
My liquid is 22.25
21.25 seems short for tall guys.
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It seems like this new frame is going to feel/be small. My 20 inch is 21 1/8 top tube and I"m 5' 8".
My liquid is 22.25
21.25 seems short for tall guys.
You are correct sir.
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Hmmm let me elaborate. I have more time in on the bike now.... For some context I rode BMX from 1974 to 1984 and then nothing until 2003.
I am 5'11" and have owned and ridden the following with 8" slams or 8.25" grand slams....
WTP Trust 21.25"tt
FBM Exodus 21.25"tt
FBM Exodus 22" tt custom
Sunday Model C 21.75" tt
Fly Lago 21" tt
Standard 250l 21" tt
DK r/t 21" tt
BSD forever 20.7" tt
FBM Steadfast 21.5" tt
Native Trendkill 21" tt
FBM Steadfast 21.25" tt
S&M 22 Wheel Holmes 21.25" tt
The 22 Holmes feels like a supergoose did back in the early 80's. I think this has to do with my body size in relation to the overall bike size and the slacker s/t angle. I can bunny hop like a mofo on it too... everything is a bit slower happening but not too slow.
I am so stoked on this bike!
A word to the wise the stock wheels do not have enough tension on the spokes from the factory. I always put some tlc into factory built wheels before I ride but I didn't this time out of excitement to ride trails ASAP. The rear wheel was knocked out of true just by doing 180s and developed a hop when I cased a jump. I though it was a flat spot but after loosening all the spokes and rebuilding with enough tension it is perfectly true and round. I recommend an extra 1.5 to 2 turns on the rear wheel nipples (.5 at a time not at once) and a full turn for the font.
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Sep%2001%2C%205%2015%2035%20PM.jpg)
the only blue Holmes? should be rolling in a week. He's building wheels with the rims/profile hubs.
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the only blue holmes? Should be rolling in a week. He's building wheels with the rims/profile hubs.
nice!
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The 22 Holmes feels like a supergoose did back in the early 80's. I think this has to do with my body size in relation to the overall bike size and the slacker s/t angle. I can bunny hop like a mofo on it too... everything is a bit slower happening but not too slow.
I was going to get out of bmx for good, but after reading this comment i would really like to give the holmes a try.
I have never actually ridden a supergoose or any other mongoose from that era, but i got my first bike in 1991, which felt a lot different than today's low and twitchy frames. I too am 9' 11" and 33 years old. Didn't really get to ride any of the bikes that i build over the past 10 years, but i currently own a 20.75" tt fly Pantera 4, which i'm not too happy with when trying to bunny hop. It's not a bad bike, but it doesn't feel 100% right either.
I rode a 24" wtp cruiser, which felt a bit heavy and too big. Do you think i should try the holmes? If so, where did you guys order your sets and how much did you spend? Thanks.
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I was going to get out of bmx for good, but after reading this comment i would really like to give the holmes a try.
I have never actually ridden a supergoose or any other mongoose from that era, but i got my first bike in 1991, which felt a lot different than today's low and twitchy frames. I too am 9' 11" and 33 years old. Didn't really get to ride any of the bikes that i build over the past 10 years, but i currently own a 20.75" tt fly Pantera 4, which i'm not too happy with when trying to bunny hop. It's not a bad bike, but it doesn't feel 100% right either.
I rode a 24" wtp cruiser, which felt a bit heavy and too big. Do you think i should try the holmes? If so, where did you guys order your sets and how much did you spend? Thanks.
http://www.sandmbikes.com/all-products/frames/frame-holmes-22 (http://www.sandmbikes.com/all-products/frames/frame-holmes-22)
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I got my kit from a lbs but eBay has really good deals too. I think you should get one! Rode around the city tonight and the holmes was so much fun.
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Pepper G.'s InDust 2ton 22". Made in Texas. 21.75"tt, 14"cs. SuperTherm main tubes. Profile stem, hubs, and cranks. S&M fork.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/PepperGsInDust2Ton22.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/PepperGsInDust2Ton22decal.jpg)
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Local bike shop built up a new Holmes. Looking to give it a go next time I'm down at the track.
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/fitbiker_/DSC00157.jpg)
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Pepper G.'s InDust 2ton 22". Made in Texas. 21.75"tt, 14"cs. SuperTherm main tubes. Profile stem, hubs, and cranks. S&M fork.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/PepperGsInDust2Ton22.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/PepperGsInDust2Ton22decal.jpg)
Rode this one. Still couldn't get down with how it felt. I am not sure if Pepper likes his bars higher than me, but I felt like she was kind of ass heavy when I sent it through Slacker last night. Maybe the ride would feel a bit better for me personally if the bars were a bit lower. But I also felt the back end/BB height might not be to my taste as well. Couldn't put my finger on what it was causing me the funky stuff, but it was a combo of big feeling bars and something in the way it pumped in between sets.
It didn't really give me the feeling of anything I am used to, be it 20" or 24". Waiting to ride one of the S&M's to see how that one feels.
Pepper's bike is a dialed ass rig, just thought I would add that. Really really nice. The paint on the frame was really good, the wheels (besides the rims) are pretty dialed. Solid feeling bike. Just couldn't get down with the geometry.
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just seems like bmx selling its soul and not really knowing why.
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. . . But I also felt the back end/BB height might not be to my taste as well. . . .
i can respect that. you might like some of the STANDARDs better (with 21"tt and 12.5" bb). 12.75" bb would have the same bb rise (+1.75") as 20"s and the Model C and Wave C 24", and i think that would rock too.
just seems like bmx selling its soul and not really knowing why.
if bmx's soul requires that everyone ride the same bike, whether age 12 or 32 or 5'1" or 6'4", then i'm glad you're the Savior, guarding the gates to bmx heaven. meanwhile i'll still be digging and riding, hell bent.
and, you've got a lot of catching up to do: time to persecute FBM and Volume for making fixies, Fairdale for making commuter cruisers, Standard for making custom mtb 29'ers, all riders who have taken money from energy drinks, junk food, and sunglass companies, or ever dropped in on a Mega Ramp, and just about every bmx company for going to Taiwan and abandoning American-made.
but, i don't condemn these companies. and my bmx brain (and penitent heart) is big enough to handle a wheel size option for a few underground riders who dig it.
better example of selling out ? : http://vimeo.com/44909160 (http://vimeo.com/44909160)
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just seems like bmx selling its soul and not really knowing why.
what?
selling it's soul to whom?
The soul of BMX is making bikes fun. riding bikes with no rules. THAT is BMX. Tire size never had anything to do with BMX. It had everything to do with breaking molds.
S&M Holmes.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Sep%2010%2C%2012%2019%2018%20PM.jpg)
my bud MattyBMX throwing down. He's 43, raced pro for YEARS (paid his rent pedaling his balls off) and says this is the best bike he's ridden.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/matty22.jpg)
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S&M Holmes.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Sep%2010%2C%2012%2019%2018%20PM.jpg)
HOLY CRAP that looks RAD! More pics and parts spec please!
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touched a raw nerve there methinks.
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I guess theyre meant for dirt then? Would be pretty cool to see one shredding street. 4 Pegs, brakeless etc etc....
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What are the Revenge Tyres like, close up on those?
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That looks amazing.
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I want one of these. Jeebus. I normally hate blue bikes but I think I'd sell my soul for that one, looks awesome.
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What are the Revenge Tyres like, close up on those?
I will have more of a definitive answer tonight but here is what I know so far.
Grips on dirt (damp or dry) and concrete extremely well.
Rated for 80 psi but keep an eye on the bead I had one blow off the rim after riding for an hour at 80 psi. The steel bead was kinked from the factory. Ordered another one and rode street last night at 60psi. I cased a concrete step really hard and the tire let the rim hit like it has 30 spi in it.
Riding street tonight at 80psi and I will inevitable case the same 5 stair again so we'll see.
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Meh even at 80psi it still squirms a lot railing around on concrete... Bowls are OK but for flat carves not so hot. The front tire started to wash out turning 90 degrees on a sidewalk after hopping up a 5 stair.... even with 80psi. I was thinking of going to 100psi but I just got home riding trails with the tires at 80psi and both tires developed hops... the beads were starting to pull out in a couple places... Meh. I'd say the tires makes a superb front tire.... and it seems 60psi is the sweet spot. I am hoping a quality 100psi rear tire comes out soon. Fingers crossed for the faction rims and tires!
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You've not had it too long though right? Tires always suck for a week or so, just need a bit of wearing in.
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What about the rims? Since you really only have one readily available rim to replace it with. It be a shame if they were absolute shit.
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You've not had it too long though right? Tires always suck for a week or so, just need a bit of wearing in.
I agree regarding grip but the tires don't seem to like max psi when the bead starts to pull out. Unless I am wrong about the latter and I hope I am.
The rims are actually really great so far.
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Scott- something you can try (if you aren't scared to add some rotational weight) is to take some electrical tape and wrap a few layers around the rim. This helps the tires seat better on the bead.
But, with that being said...the first 24" rims I rode were some shitty Alienation ones. I couldn't keep a tire on the bead for the life of me. I tried everything known to man and had no luck. Switched to some Odyssey Hazard Lites and had zero issues with the now 4 different tires I have rode on the rim.
Your tire or rim might be your turd in the punch bowl at this party.
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also in addition to the electrical tape trick, dudes who run ghetto tubeless setups will sometimes use foam insulation tape to make sure the tires stay put and seat into the bead nice. might be worth a shot
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Scott- something you can try (if you aren't scared to add some rotational weight) is to take some electrical tape and wrap a few layers around the rim. This helps the tires seat better on the bead.
But, with that being said...the first 24" rims I rode were some shitty Alienation ones. I couldn't keep a tire on the bead for the life of me. I tried everything known to man and had no luck. Switched to some Odyssey Hazard Lites and had zero issues with the now 4 different tires I have rode on the rim.
Your tire or rim might be your turd in the punch bowl at this party.
So would you run the electrical tape along the inside sidewalls where the hook is? Can you elaborate?
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also in addition to the electrical tape trick, dudes who run ghetto tubeless setups will sometimes use foam insulation tape to make sure the tires stay put and seat into the bead nice. might be worth a shot
Do you mean this tape? Thanks for the tips.
(http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/966469/12556938/0/1271748353/rubber_foam_insulation_tape.jpg)
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yep thats the stuff, and as you can see in that lil stock image its available in different widths and thicknesses so you can get a good fit in your rim
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So would you run the electrical tape along the inside sidewalls where the hook is? Can you elaborate?
Basically just think regular old rubber rim strip. And that you are taking that thin rubber rim strip and you are adding layers to it to make it thicker. You don't have to put anything on the inside of the side walls.
Hope that helps.
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throw another (or 2) cheap rubber rim strip on top of the existing one
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throw another (or 2) cheap rubber rim strip on top of the existing one
Will do thanks guys. The tires are pretty good I am just hard on wheels.
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/22_Dart.jpg)
this 15 year old kid was STOKED on this bike. S&M Holmes. He test rode a few different guys bikes before taking this one for a ride. This pic was his first run through the jumps and his response after walking back up the hill was, "I want one of these!!". with a HUGE grin on his face.
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I rode the S&M 22 at the show. Felt the best out of any 22" I have rode.
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The bike is a keeper for sure.
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I have all my parts ready, just waiting for the frame to show up. :)
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On the Holmes. Who makes the rims or are the just generic rims? Whats the tire width like?
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On the Holmes. Who makes the rims or are the just generic rims? Whats the tire width like?
The wheels are done under the Revenge label:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revenge-Industries-22-Wheel-Set-S-M-Holmes-BMX-Dirt-Jump-Bike-Cruiser-tire-/110940292292 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revenge-Industries-22-Wheel-Set-S-M-Holmes-BMX-Dirt-Jump-Bike-Cruiser-tire-/110940292292)
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t205/turtlebmx/93A1A746-BE8C-4E3F-898F-189AE8F195CA-703-0000006ED3709435.jpg)
pic from:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3732187#p3732187 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3732187#p3732187)
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Cullen, have you ridden an S&M 22" yet? Why is it that I like that one a lot, but can't get down with how your or Vern's bikes feel? I pedaled the show bike from Vegas around and it felt exactly how I would have wanted. Pulled up nice and held manuals, bunny hopped nice, and felt like it had the proper responsive front end.
This was all just in a ride up and down the isle of the show, so its not like I am sending it on any jumps. But after pedaling it around at the show.....I want to send it off some jumps...haha.
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Cullen, have you ridden an S&M 22" yet? Why is it that I like that one a lot, but can't get down with how your or Vern's bikes feel? I pedaled the show bike from Vegas around and it felt exactly how I would have wanted. Pulled up nice and held manuals, bunny hopped nice, and felt like it had the proper responsive front end.
This was all just in a ride up and down the isle of the show, so its not like I am sending it on any jumps. But after pedaling it around at the show.....I want to send it off some jumps...haha.
No, but I'm sure it's rad, too. (The Holmes is very similar to the 2Ton on the bb height and back end, but the InDust is just longer in the front end (21.75"tt), esp when considering the laid back seat tube angle on the Holmes). And, I just saw this on bmxmuseum: "S&M posted on their twitter that they are welding up 22's with 22" top tubes."
As long as people are getting stoked on a new option, it's all good. :) Hopefully this will continue and there will be more tire options.
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S&M posted (twitter) >>22" top tube 22" frames in progress<Also, have a look for the new faction bike tires on http://www.facebook.com/pages/Faction-Bike-Co-22-wheel-bikes/100532622340
Hopefully coming soon
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Faction has been saying "soon" for the last two years...
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Does revenge make a none 22 knobby tire for the Holmes?
I really want one but, just a little worried with the lack of tire and rim options.
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S&M lists 22 inch long frames on their site now.
They also list the shorter one as 21.5 but if the seatpost tube was at the standard 71 then I think it would measure 21.25. That would make the 22 inch closer to 21.75, I'd bet.
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Oct%2001%2C%204%2034%2038%20PM.jpg)
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Before I put the brakes on. I think I need a shorter stem.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Oct%2001%2C%204%2033%2017%20PM.jpg)
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Before I put the brakes on. I think I need a shorter stem.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Oct%2001%2C%204%2033%2017%20PM.jpg)
Very nice!
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I am really liking my homes now that I have the gearing worked out and my wheels rebuilt with elite hubs. RaysMTB is only two days away!!!
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/486735_4067764853614_1099464313_n.jpg)
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New Faction F22 foldable tyre, 2.25, 100psi. They say ready to sell in November?
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Ruben is bummed.
edit: Also, why does the SO height on all of these look so low?
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The SO height is pretty low. I think mine measures at around 8.5-8.75
It doesn't ride like a scooter though. Actually feels amazing.
The Holmes has damn near the same measurments as a 20 inch frame but the brake mounts are in the correct spot for a 22 inch wheel. So it also looks like it has a low SO height. but it doesnt' feel like that when you ride it. if that makes any sense....
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Got a preview ride in tonight before RaysMTB opens this weekend and spread some 22" love.
Everyone LOVED the holmes. S&M should send one out as a demo/rental. They would sell a ton of these bikes.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/340912_4080063281067_1269195896_o.jpg)
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Pepper G's InDust 2ton 22" gets flattened:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper_table_still_FB.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper22.jpg)
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Pepper G's InDust 2ton 22" gets flattened
So rad man!
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I wanted to try the Sunday 24" supposedly rides like a BMX, now i see these 22" wheels & wonder what these are like? Id love to set either up for street (something like Bunkys) & have a little shred. I just dont want to shell out serious money for either & then get bored/not like it.
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I'm currently gathering parts to build a 22" ride already have a custom frame from Standard. I'm hoping someone comes out with some nice welded chrome 22" hoops so I can get the wheels built the way I want them.
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New Faction F22 foldable tyre, 2.25, 100psi. They say ready to sell in November?
This is the only thing holding me back. I want lightweight high psi non dirt tires. The minute the release them is when I order my Holmes.
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This is the only thing holding me back. I want lightweight high psi non dirt tires. The minute the release them is when I order my Holmes.
I heard S&M is going to make some better quality 22" tires in the near future, might want to shoot them and email and see if they are making a street tread one.
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Pepper G's InDust 2ton 22" gets flattened:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper_table_still_FB.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper22.jpg)
Pepper is a boss. Cause he drives a Hummer. hahah
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/matty22Flat.jpg)
You may have seen this on the S&M FB page. NW goodness
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I contacted Faction and actually got two prompt responses.
Hi Rich,
my bro keith will probably be in touch with you too, he'll tell you more about the bike's handling on the racetrack.
As for the stunting, the larger bike isn't going to be exactly like a 20 for stuff like 360 hops or t'whips on the flat, but off any kind of kicker or in a park you'll be sticking more tricks than before. The 22's benefit is that you get more air time (even though you don't feel like you're blasting the hit any faster).
We've looked at the clips of Jason and Matt Stahl in the US (both 6ft + guys) and their warm up airs are higher than their 'go 4 it' hits on the 20, they're comfortably clearing more rotational degrees because they're in the air longer.
The frame and forks are a bit lighter than the S&M 22 (again Keith will give you the specifics, or they'll be on the Faction store site next week), the new tyres are lighter than all the top 20" street tyres (I love Aramid!) and the rims are same weight as the best of the 20's too. The combination of larger size but low weight is unusual at first, to me it felt a bit 'toy like' because you expect quality stuff to have a bit of 'mass' but the prototypes have shown the design to be strong (deliberate pool lip hang-ups, ghost rides to wall, and the UK postal service LoL, have been good destruction tests).
The Amero kit is going to be around $700 bucks for frame,forks,wheels,tyres,tubes (and shipping), but when you're ripping the same bike just as well on a racetrack or on the trails, it makes it a decent value package IMO.
I hope that's enough info.
Cheers,
Kev
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FactionBikeCo
Hi Richard thanks for your interest. Our shipment of new Amero kits arrived at the UK Docks on the 14th. They wont arrive at our warehouse here till the next few days where we can start checking everything is ok. We will be processing UK and European customer orders as of next week via our on line store on our Faction web site. US and Canada orders will also be via our online store from Dec 14th (hopefully earlier) as we are shipping part of our stock to our US based distro hub. This is to cut out the shipping cost to the end customer as much as possible. Re the tyres being sold on their own we won't be selling them individually until Easter next year. They will only be available as part of the Amero kit till then. Hope this is cool for now? Cheers
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They've been saying 'items will be here next month' for the last three years.
HOPEFULLY, this time it's real...
*edit
also, any idea what the geo is on the new frame? They .had it listed a few years back but pulled all the data from their site. I haven't seen an update
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I just dont know if I believe the wheels and tires are lighter than the 20" and still be durable. I'm not really looking to go ride trails solely with this I rarely do ride trails realistically. I'm looking to stay in the skatepark with this thing. Might be a gamble but as long as I can tailwhip air it out of quarters fine I'll be stoked. I think my ideal setup is the Holmes with the rest of the parts being new Factions if they actually release.
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I just dont know if I believe the wheels and tires are lighter than the 20" and still be durable. I'm not really looking to go ride trails solely with this I rarely do ride trails realistically. I'm looking to stay in the skatepark with this thing. Might be a gamble but as long as I can tailwhip air it out of quarters fine I'll be stoked. I think my ideal setup is the Holmes with the rest of the parts being new Factions if they actually release.
I think you are right. I have been on a holmes now since august. I had to true the stock wheels a few times and finally decided to put the rims on profile elite's and carefully hand build them. Since then they have been great. The innova tires are not bad if you keep them 60 to 65 psi. High psi causes the beads to start to pull out... the tires stretch at max 80 psi. Now that the tires have worn in (they wear fast too) they are gripping on wood ramps really well.
But I sooooo want the Faction rims and tires!
Heading out to ride at RaysMTB on this cold November morning. 22 is the future for BMX it is not a gimmick. And BTW what Faction said about going higher and farther jumping a 22 wheel is 100% true.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/248917_4275029675105_1760018820_n.jpg)
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Next time one of you 22" guys go to rays let me know. I'd love to pedal around on it to see how it feels if you don't mind. I live abou an hour and half away so it would be a peace of mind instead of a $700 gamble.
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Next time one of you 22" guys go to rays let me know. I'd love to pedal around on it to see how it feels if you don't mind. I live abou an hour and half away so it would be a peace of mind instead of a $700 gamble.
Man, I loved Ray's so much. I went in Nov '09 I think it was. I'm sure it's even better now. The best part is having different areas for traditional bowl/quarter type park setups and other areas for "trails" style loops that are one-directional and bring you roughly back to where you started. You can have 30 people on deck and everyone dropping in one after the other in long trains. Whereas, over in the bowl/box/quarter areas, everyone has to wait on deck for one rider. Any bike park of the future must incorporate the trails loop concept.
But yeah, it would be sick if there was a 22" demo bike at Ray's. I suggested that to FACTION like 3 years ago. Maybe S&M will hook it up.
Pepper's second InDust 2ton, this one, proto.v2. It's a little shorter in the front as well as the back. Pepper loves it. Vernon thinks it's a little too short/quick for trails, after being used to v.1. This is the fun of getting protos made !!
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper_2ton_proto2.jpg)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3842343&viewfull=1#post3842343 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3842343&viewfull=1#post3842343)
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send that shit to me! I'll send back my black one. :D
haha.
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Next time one of you 22" guys go to rays let me know. I'd love to pedal around on it to see how it feels if you don't mind. I live abou an hour and half away so it would be a peace of mind instead of a $700 gamble.
I am there almost every day. I ride tuesday nights for a good 3 to 4 hours the rest of the week I ride maybe 30 to 60 mins between 5pm and 6pm and then a couple times with my kids on the weekends... which isn't really riding more like teaching and watching but most of the time that is much more fun. PM me when you come you are more than welcome to ride my bike.
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send that shit to me! I'll send back my black one. :D
haha.
sent u a msg. ;)
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Man, I loved Ray's so much. I went in Nov '09 I think it was. I'm sure it's even better now. The best part is having different areas for traditional bowl/quarter type park setups and other areas for "trails" style loops that are one-directional and bring you roughly back to where you started. You can have 30 people on deck and everyone dropping in one after the other in long trains. Whereas, over in the bowl/box/quarter areas, everyone has to wait on deck for one rider. Any bike park of the future must incorporate the trails loop concept.
But yeah, it would be sick if there was a 22" demo bike at Ray's. I suggested that to FACTION like 3 years ago. Maybe S&M will hook it up.
Pepper's second InDust 2ton, this one, proto.v2. It's a little shorter in the front as well as the back. Pepper loves it. Vernon thinks it's a little too short/quick for trails, after being used to v.1. This is the fun of getting protos made !!
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper_2ton_proto2.jpg)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3842343&viewfull=1#post3842343 (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237841&p=3842343&viewfull=1#post3842343)
Unless Trek is making a 22" bike, you probably won't be seeing any in Ray's for rental/demo. We had a Model C in there and as soon as Trek took over they said they couldn't use it any more.
Also pisses me off because the deal we made was to give the bike (full after market Model C build with all Odyssey parts) and in return we would have the "Sunday box" that I believe is now the "Tree box" in the jump room for 2 years, and we got about 3/4 of a season. LAME FEST.
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Unless Trek is making a 22" bike, you probably won't be seeing any in Ray's for rental/demo. We had a Model C in there and as soon as Trek took over they said they couldn't use it any more.
Also pisses me off because the deal we made was to give the bike (full after market Model C build with all Odyssey parts) and in return we would have the "Sunday box" that I believe is now the "Tree box" in the jump room for 2 years, and we got about 3/4 of a season. LAME FEST.
Sorry to hear that... I rode that exact model C this summer at Joyride150... I mean exact same brake pads, tires and cable too!!! Everything was 100% still working. That Model C is laid out for sure.
I was talking with the (ray's) guys tonight and sounds like S&M wouldn't be an issue with Trek but who knows if it will come to pass.
I miss those few years with Nina Logan and Bobby at the helm. I remember your green model c with the purple stem blasting that Oakley jump about as high as anyone I have ever seen.
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Sorry to hear that... I rode that exact model C this summer at Joyride150... I mean exact same brake pads, tires and cable too!!! Everything was 100% still working. That Model C is laid out for sure.
I was talking with the (ray's) guys tonight and sounds like S&M wouldn't be an issue with Trek but who knows if it will come to pass.
I miss those few years with Nina Logan and Bobby at the helm. I remember your green model c with the purple stem blasting that Oakley jump about as high as anyone I have ever seen.
When Nina and them were there I was there every weekend all weekend. It was practically a Section Eight reunion.
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Sorry to hear that... I rode that exact model C this summer at Joyride150... I mean exact same brake pads, tires and cable too!!! Everything was 100% still working. That Model C is laid out for sure.
I was talking with the (ray's) guys tonight and sounds like S&M wouldn't be an issue with Trek but who knows if it will come to pass.
I miss those few years with Nina Logan and Bobby at the helm. I remember your green model c with the purple stem blasting that Oakley jump about as high as anyone I have ever seen.
Yeah, miss those days for sure. Model C was the best bike to ride at Ray's, hands down! The green with purple were it's Donatello days. Now we are on to Michelangelo with that orange!! And I at least still get to ride with Nina and Logan a bunch, so that is cool.
If we ever get a chance to get back there I will for sure hit you up. After pedaling around on the 22" Holmes at Interbike I would love to ramp the shit out of it.
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Wheels will be getting built next week after the custom spokes come in.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/BlueStreak003/Picture858.jpg)
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That is gonna be awesome.
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Seriously, that thing looks nice.
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Thanks guys. I'm still bummed that I could not get chrome hoops since no one makes them, so they will be black aero Velocity hoops laced to polished Profile mini hubs.
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strip the anodizing off em!
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I almost did strip the ano off them and had them polished but I figured screw it I'll run the black wheels until someone makes a nice chrome hoop then I'll swap them out.
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Thanks guys. I'm still bummed that I could not get chrome hoops since no one makes them, so they will be black aero Velocity hoops laced to polished Profile mini hubs.
Very nice!
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I got an email from Kevin at Faction and just put an order through for their foldable tires. They look like Ruben OG tires. Man I can't wait!
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Do they have the tires? Someone else told me you could order them but they were not expected to ship them until the end of the year.
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Do they have the tires? Someone else told me you could order them but they were not expected to ship them until the end of the year.
They have them to the US with free shipping but will take 28 days. I think this is because there will be a US distro and the tires will be sent from there. But I sent Kevin an email just to be sure. I will post whatever I find out but the online store is working for the tires. The frame/fork/wheels kit is online to order too and he is throwing in the innova tores at no extra cost.
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Ok great, I need to order 2 of the tires myself.
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He just replied... yup they will be in a texas distro within 3 to 4 weeks and then shipped out from there. Free shipping too!
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Actually the free shipping applies to the amero kit as well.. if you can wait 28 days for the product to arrive in the USA. If not he can ship it to you from the UK for a fee of course. Damn... I need to sell some parts that is an awesome deal.
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wheels are done and on the way back to me. Bruce at the Outdoorstore in TN built them up for me.
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Got the wheels/tires on the 22" last night but was to drunk to put the chain on or setup the brake :oops:
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Got the wheels/tires on the 22" last night but was to drunk to put the chain on or setup the brake :oops:
Get it finished and post up some pics!!
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What Texas distro are you talking about? Is it a bicycle distro?
wheels are done and on the way back to me. Bruce at the Outdoorstore in TN built them up for me.
Bruce is awesome.
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Get it finished and post up some pics!!
I'm going to stay out of the Jack tonight until I get it finished, then take a couple pics. I must say it looks awesome and is surprising very lite.
What Texas distro are you talking about? Is it a bicycle distro?
Bruce is awesome.
No doubt Bruce is the man. :cheers:
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What Texas distro are you talking about? Is it a bicycle distro?
He didn't say. I think my lbs (Rybak) may have sent you or Logan an email about it too. In any event I can't wait to get those tires.
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I was a bright sunny (albeit cold) day here in Cleveland so I took the afternoon off and went to check on the trails. BIG MISTAKE! I rode my bike down into the basin that leads into the woods and encountered a massive unavoidable clay mud soup! Trails have a lot of damage... went to RaysMTB and my bike was so covered with so much mud it took a couple hours for it to even dry enough to flake off! Here is the 22 holmes after three hours of riding.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/196620_4398253275618_579279948_n.jpg)
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He didn't say. I think my lbs (Rybak) may have sent you or Logan an email about it too. In any event I can't wait to get those tires.
Yea he hit me up about it. It isn't Full Factory doing it.
ps- Be thankful that you have such a bad ass LBS in your area. That shop is awesome and Rybak is seriously the man. One of the cooler dudes I deal with at my job.
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you guys finding the bigger wheels are easier on the back
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Well here is my 22" Standard, to cold to ride it today and need to adjust the seat some still.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/BlueStreak003/Picture865.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/BlueStreak003/Picture864.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/BlueStreak003/Picture863.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/BlueStreak003/Picture866.jpg)
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Build up my new Faction Bikes Amero set. So far without the F22 tires, hope to get them soon.
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Build up my new Faction Bikes Amero set. So far without the F22 tires, hope to get them soon.
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whooooooaaaaaaaa.... where can i get one of these fancy 22 inchers?
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that Faction looks really nice.
brenden- Danscomp has/had the S&M Holmes kit (frame/fork/wheels/tires). You can get frames by InDust through CMC4130 on here, Faction might be available in the States in a month (they've been saying 'soon' for the last 3 years), you can have Standard make a custom frame/fork for the cost of your first born.
A bunch of options but wheels/tires are still pretty limited. However, as you can see from this post, if you wanna roll on 22's, you can make it happen.
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you guys finding the bigger wheels are easier on the back
Hmmm... I don't have chronic back problems but I drink a lot (hard to stay hydrated) and I ride rhythm style jumps where there is a lot of pumping and g-outs so my core gets worked.
I have noticed that I can ride 3 to 5 times a week an hour to two hours on my holmes 22... whereas my 20" steadfast I could do the same for about 6 weeks and then I had to go for massotherapy on my lower back or I was out for a couple weeks.
I think the difference is the fact I have a very upright stance on the holmes... It has a long cs (end of the drop out) therefore I can run a profile push and hoder (really big) bars. My stance is way more upright and the bike still feels balanced not too easy to pull up.
Now as far as riding a rigid bike that is jarring when you case hard the 22 wheel does pop out of hang ups and cases better but it is not hat much better than a 20". In reference a 24" or 26" wheels is worlds away from how jarring 20 ans 22 wheels are. The 22 is better but not by a lot.
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Build up my new Faction Bikes Amero set. So far without the F22 tires, hope to get them soon.
Very nice can you post pictures of the front tire and fork clearance?
Well here is my 22" Standard, to cold to ride it today and need to adjust the seat some still.
Very nice!
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I heard today that Redline has a 22 wheel bike that has been showing up at a local track in Dayton Ohio. I did some poking around on the interwebz and came up with this photo. Does anyone have any information?
(http://www.bmxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/redline_os20.jpg)
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^ it's a different sized 22 inch wheel. I don't have the details but I know the racing world won't allow the 22 inch wheels that we've been riding (holmes, indust, faction) but do allow this new wheel from redline. the size difference isn't much, mm's difference.
There is also an O/S tire (over sized) that is still in the safe range of being legal on the track. Tioga makes it.
That's all I know.
talk about a cluster fuck. :D
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^ it's a different sized 22 inch wheel. I don't have the details but I know the racing world won't allow the 22 inch wheels that we've been riding (holmes, indust, faction) but do allow this new wheel from redline. the size difference isn't much, mm's difference.
There is also an O/S tire (over sized) that is still in the safe range of being legal on the track. Tioga makes it.
That's all I know.
talk about a cluster fuck. :D
Ya no kidding!
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Very nice can you post pictures of the front tire and fork clearance?
Here are some details and some words about my first impressions [Please excuse my poor english :D ]. Please note, because of the rainy weather I haven't been rinding the Amero so far (except from a one minute session in my living room).
1. front tire clearance: With a 22 x 2.15 tire there is approximately 15 mm (0.6 inch) space between fork and tire.
2. back tire clearance with a 22 x 2.2 tire (almost slammed) is approximately 10 mm ( 0.4 inch).
3. The space between the sprocket and chainstays is very low. Concerning the wide and short rear end, a 26 T sprocket is the maximum that will fit. If you install a 9 T driver (back wheel comes with a 10 T driver), 2,88 will be the maximum gear ratio you can get.
4. As the other 22" frame-fork sets like S&M (Holmes), Indust or Standard the Amero are also made of 4130 tubes. HT, BB and CS are heat-treated. The welds seems to be very strong and professional made. Without having any experience with other 22" frames or forks like S&M for instance, I think the quality of all these 22" frame-fork-sets are pretty much the same.
5. So far faction bike co is the only company offering welded rims. They are 37 mm wide (1.46 inch) and seems to be very strong and durable. I can't say anything about the hubs beside that both are female hubs and the back wheel comes with a 10 T driver.
Beside of the poor or mid quality tires (hope to get the F22 foldable tires right after Xmas) the Amero frame-fork-wheel set is a high quality bike kit and is worth its price. Although I haven't been riding it, I'm absolutely stoked.
When the weather will clear up, I will find out how it rides. Afterwards I try to write a short review (hope you will understand me :D).
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Very nice can you post pictures of the front tire and fork clearance?
Here are some details and some words about my first impressions [Please excuse my poor english :D ]. Please note, because of the rainy weather I haven't been rinding the Amero so far (except from a one minute session in my living room).
1. front tire clearance: With a 22 x 2.15 tire there is approximately 15 mm (0.6 inch) space between fork and tire.
2. back tire clearance with a 22 x 2.2 tire (almost slammed) is approximately 10 mm ( 0.4 inch).
3. The space between the sprocket and chainstays is very low. Concerning the wide and short rear end, a 26 T sprocket is the maximum that will fit. If you install a 9 T driver (back wheel comes with a 10 T driver), 2,88 will be the maximum gear ratio you can get.
4. As the other 22" frame-fork sets like S&M (Holmes), Indust or Standard the Amero are also made of 4130 tubes. HT, BB and CS are heat-treated. The welds seems to be very strong and professional made. Without having any experience with other 22" frames or forks like S&M for instance, I think the quality of all these 22" frame-fork-sets are pretty much the same.
5. So far faction bike co is the only company offering welded rims. They are 37 mm wide (1.46 inch) and seems to be very strong and durable. I can't say anything about the hubs beside that both are female hubs and the back wheel comes with a 10 T driver.
Beside of the poor or mid quality tires (hope to get the F22 foldable tires right after Xmas) the Amero frame-fork-wheel set is a high quality bike kit and is worth its price. Although I haven't been riding it, I'm absolutely stoked.
When the weather will clear up, I will find out how it rides. Afterwards I try to write a short review (hope you will understand me :D).
Wow thanks for all the info! How many pawls does the driver have? Do you know if it is an Odyssey joytech clone?
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10/26 is the highest you can go with the stock wheel?
that's a low gearing.
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10/26 is the highest you can go with the stock wheel?
that's a low gearing.
Unless you can get a 9t driver... king kong? Joytech?
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Unless you can get a 9t driver... king kong? Joytech?
right. So they finally get their product to market and all you can do is climb hills well.
They should have put a 9 on the hub. Or, sell just the damn rim so people can lace their own wheels.
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right. So they finally get their product to market and all you can do is climb hills well.
They should have put a 9 on the hub. Or, sell just the damn rim so people can lace their own wheels.
Ya I am hoping Alienation comes through with rims... Do you think we (as in the 22 guys on here) could team up and see if gsport or jim c would make a 22 rim? How many guys do we have... at least 5 or 6. I would take four 22" rollcage rims just for myself... minimum order could be 25? If the total minimum order is more I could pony up.
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I'd be shocked if minimum order is 25. Probably closer to hundred/s but that's just a guess.
If you round up all the people, on all the forums that are into 22's, we still wouldn't have enough people/cash, I don't think.
I'm curious how many CMC's buddy purchased when he got the rims he got,way back when.
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I'd be shocked if minimum order is 25. Probably closer to hundred/s but that's just a guess.
If you round up all the people, on all the forums that are into 22's, we still wouldn't have enough people/cash, I don't think.
I'm curious how many CMC's buddy purchased when he got the rims he got,way back when.
I have considered buying the faction wheels just to get the rims and have a set of extra spokes.. and hubs I could use on other bikes... I might buy the whole kit but I have to say after riding for 35 years I know a great bmx bike when I ride one. Once I moved the rear wheel back far in the drop outs and got the Hoder bars with a push stem... the Holmes is DIALED.
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Oh and I went full Mulville camo Saturday. I had a hundred dollar credit and got the 15% plus free shipping on the elite's from Dans (crazy cheap). Got the stem and chainwheel from RaysMTB.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/54863_4415557028201_198893460_o.jpg)
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I would take 4 Odyssey/G-Sport rims myself.
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Wow thanks for all the info! How many pawls does the driver have? Do you know if it is an Odyssey joytech clone?
I had a short look inside the Faction Bike Co. rear hub (sorry no pictures so far). It's a Q-Lite system similar to the WTP supreme hub. Unlike a normal cassette hub, the whole internals are reversed, so the pawls ( 4 double pawls?) are inside the hub shell. Actually I dont´t know the producer and I can't find any aftermarket driver so far. I sent an email to Faction Bike Co. and wait for an answer.
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I had a short look inside the Faction Bike Co. rear hub (sorry no pictures so far). It's a Q-Lite system similar to the WTP supreme hub. Unlike a normal cassette hub, the whole internals are reversed, so the pawls ( 4 double pawls?) are inside the hub shell. Actually I dont´t know the producer and I can't find any aftermarket driver so far. I sent an email to Faction Bike Co. and wait for an answer.
Holy $hit! I would be willing to bet the WTP 9t driver would work. It is seriously hard for me to imagine Faction would design and fab a one off hub/driver. Thanks again for all of the info.
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Holy $hit! I would be willing to bet the WTP 9t driver would work. It is seriously hard for me to imagine Faction would design and fab a one off hub/driver. Thanks again for all of the info.
From the looks of things these are the same hubs that are on all of the 2013 2Hip complete bikes.
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Ya I am hoping Alienation comes through with rims... Do you think we (as in the 22 guys on here) could team up and see if gsport or jim c would make a 22 rim? How many guys do we have... at least 5 or 6. I would take four 22" rollcage rims just for myself... minimum order could be 25? If the total minimum order is more I could pony up.
I wouldn't count on that happening. The internets cried out for 48 hole Ratchet hubs, they were made and then nobody bought them. And that part was way less obscure than 22" rims.
I'd be shocked if minimum order is 25. Probably closer to hundred/s but that's just a guess.
If you round up all the people, on all the forums that are into 22's, we still wouldn't have enough people/cash, I don't think.
Agreed. A minimum order for rims would be well over 100. Not trying to discredit the 22" stuff. It just is what it is.
I would ride one of those Velocity Deep V rims before I touched an Alienation. Every Alienation rim I ever rode had some sort of problems.....Chrome flaking off the rim, the bead would pop off on my 24", they would bend and flex horribly. At least the Velocity is a strong rim, although it might not look the prettiest.
What is wrong with the Revenge wheel set that S&M makes anyway? It didn't look bad.
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i bought a 48h ratchet, and if the gcoaster ever materializes i hope you guys drill at least one in 48 so i can buy it
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What is wrong with the Revenge wheel set that S&M makes anyway? It didn't look bad.
1. they only come in black
2. they aren't welded at the seam
3. the wheels need spoke tension out of the box
Mostly I think people just want options. Even if they never buy 'em. :)
Tires are my biggest issue. The Revenge tires are the best yet but they are a little heavy by todays standards.
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How have i missed all this?!
Default reaction is disgust on the basis of 29in mtbs, which oozed from satans arsehole, but they actually look kind of right. I'd definitely like to try one.
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1. they only come in black
2. they aren't welded at the seam
3. the wheels need spoke tension out of the box
Mostly I think people just want options. Even if they never buy 'em. :)
Tires are my biggest issue. The Revenge tires are the best yet but they are a little heavy by todays standards.
Yea, the tires I have seen on some of the local 22"ers have been questionable at best. Shit- I haven't found much in the way of choice in rubber for my 24" that I have fallen in love with. Just got a pair of the 1.85" Intense micro knobbs. Those have been my go to so far for my Model C.
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Shit- I haven't found much in the way of choice in rubber for my 24" that I have fallen in love with. Just got a pair of the 1.85" Intense micro knobbs. Those have been my go to so far for my Model C.
There's a bunch of 24" tire options out there. If you can find some lightly used or pony up for new, the Schwalbe tabletops are nice. Tioga, maxxis, kenda, and dmr make some good ones.
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What is wrong with the Revenge wheel set that S&M makes anyway? It didn't look bad.
The rims have held up since mid august but the rear pinned seam is starting to go.
I rebuilt the rims a couple weeks ago and measured the rims with a micrometer. The revenge rim is identical to the quadrant rim. Not a bad rim at all and I am surprised they have held up this long (lots of cases etc.). I really don't want to buy a whole wheelset just to get rims again.
Does anyone know is these aftermarket rims will be offered in 22"? Apparently they have a welded seam.
(http://cdn.sandmbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Revenge_Rims.jpg)
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There's a bunch of 24" tire options out there. If you can find some lightly used or pony up for new, the Schwalbe tabletops are nice. Tioga, maxxis, kenda, and dmr make some good ones.
Stoked is right the tabletop tire is amazing. As a matter of fact I still have the one pictured here on the front if you are interested Bob. Trade? It has a lot of tread left... like new and it weighs like 500 grams and grips crazy good especially in dirt.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/25843_1348807201372_494523_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/25843_1348807161371_990613_n.jpg)
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The rims have held up since mid august but the rear pinned seam is starting to go.
I rebuilt the rims a couple weeks ago and measured the rims with a micrometer. The revenge rim is identical to the quadrant rim. Not a bad rim at all and I am surprised they have held up this long (lots of cases etc.). I really don't want to buy a whole wheelset just to get rims again.
Does anyone know is these aftermarket rims will be offered in 22"? Apparently they have a welded seam.
(http://cdn.sandmbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Revenge_Rims.jpg)
Jay over at S&M said they were in the 22" game for the long haul, so I'm betting that those rims will be made in 22" also. :cheers:
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Jay over at S&M said they were in the 22" game for the long haul, so I'm betting that those rims will be made in 22" also. :cheers:
If so we are all set!
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We're in the process of building a 22" Holmes for a customer with all american made parts. I will report back with photos once it's compleate. Obviously we can't get %100 American made though (grips, tires).
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We're in the process of building a 22" Holmes for a customer with all american made parts. I will report back with photos once it's compleate. Obviously we can't get %100 American made though (grips, tires).
Awesome looking forward to the pictures. What TT length is it?
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We're in the process of building a 22" Holmes for a customer with all american made parts. I will report back with photos once it's compleate. Obviously we can't get %100 American made though (grips, tires).
ODI grips are made here. Kenda tires too I think, but no one likes kenda.
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Ok, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to get a 22 inch bike... My only thing is the Holmes specs say it has a 14.1 back end. Is that in the middle of the dropouts? I'm riding a 21.5 Mutiny animist right now and I have the back end at about 14.5 right now and that feels too short. But the Animist has a BB height 1.7 above axle center line and the 22Holmes has a BB height 1.25 above axle center line, so I'm back and forth on whether or not the low bottom bracket will balance out the short back end for me.
Can someone with a 22holmes measure the back end for me and tell me how long it is with the axle all the way in the back of the dropouts (but still in), so that I can convince myself that I don't need to spend the money on a custom one with a longer rear end???
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Pretty sure back of the dropout sits the rear end length at just over 14.25 (14 3/8ths ?).
How tall are you bunky?
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I'm only 5-11 but after riding a Model C a bunch now short back ends feel like they loop out way too quick.
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.... The revenge rim is identical to the quadrant rim. ....
I very much doubt that. If it is then we have some patent conflicts to sort out.
:)
G.
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Jay over at S&M said they were in the 22" game for the long haul, so I'm betting that those rims will be made in 22" also. :cheers:
That is awesome to hear. Their 22" is pretty awesome.
Ok, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to get a 22 inch bike... My only thing is the Holmes specs say it has a 14.1 back end. Is that in the middle of the dropouts? I'm riding a 21.5 Mutiny animist right now and I have the back end at about 14.5 right now and that feels too short. But the Animist has a BB height 1.7 above axle center line and the 22Holmes has a BB height 1.25 above axle center line, so I'm back and forth on whether or not the low bottom bracket will balance out the short back end for me.
Can someone with a 22holmes measure the back end for me and tell me how long it is with the axle all the way in the back of the dropouts (but still in), so that I can convince myself that I don't need to spend the money on a custom one with a longer rear end???
Bunky- I bet you would dig the Holmes. If you like how your Model C rides this will probably be a fun bike for you as well.
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Ok, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to get a 22 inch bike... My only thing is the Holmes specs say it has a 14.1 back end. Is that in the middle of the dropouts? I'm riding a 21.5 Mutiny animist right now and I have the back end at about 14.5 right now and that feels too short. But the Animist has a BB height 1.7 above axle center line and the 22Holmes has a BB height 1.25 above axle center line, so I'm back and forth on whether or not the low bottom bracket will balance out the short back end for me.
Can someone with a 22holmes measure the back end for me and tell me how long it is with the axle all the way in the back of the dropouts (but still in), so that I can convince myself that I don't need to spend the money on a custom one with a longer rear end???
I'm only 5-11 but after riding a Model C a bunch now short back ends feel like they loop out way too quick.
Yes, the lower bb will balance out the shorter back end. But not just the bb . . . the larger diameter wheel will also factor in.
I say this because I've ridden/tested/experimented with a lot of builds and wheel sizes over the last several years... and even when bb height (relative to axles) and cs is the same, a bike will still pull up differently just based on the wheel size.
If you don't believe me, put some 20" wheels in your Model C and take it for a spin ! Better still (or maybe not!), get a pair of 22" wheels and 22" fork and run them in your Model C as a test. I set up a We The People Avenger (ripoff of Model C) like this. (Your rear brakes will not line up... unless you can somehow slot your dropout further forward and run brakes that can adjust the pads really far back):
Faction Zeitgeist 22" next to a We The People Avenger 24" with 22" wheels and 22" S&M fork.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/WTP_Avenger_with_22inchwheels_and_Pitchfork001.jpg)
Also, the InDust Cuatro 24" and the InDust 2ton 22" have similar cs length and bb rise, but you will feel a difference just based on the wheel size.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/InDust_2ton_and_Cuatrov2001.jpg)
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Yes, the lower bb will balance out the shorter back end. But not just the bb . . . the larger diameter wheel will also factor in.
I say this because I've ridden/tested/experimented with a lot of builds and wheel sizes over the last several years... and even when bb height (relative to axles) and cs is the same, a bike will still pull up differently just based on the wheel size.
If you don't believe me, put some 20" wheels in your Model C and take it for a spin ! Better still (or maybe not!), get a pair of 22" wheels and 22" fork and run them in your Model C as a test. I set up a We The People Avenger (ripoff of Model C) like this. (Your rear brakes will not line up... unless you can somehow slot your dropout further forward and run brakes that can adjust the pads really far back):
Faction Zeitgeist 22" next to a We The People Avenger 24" with 22" wheels and 22" S&M fork.
Also, the InDust Cuatro 24" and the InDust 2ton 22" have similar cs length and bb rise, but you will feel a difference just based on the wheel size.
I remember seeing pictures of your Avenger with 22 wheels on it somewhere and thinking it looked cool. Thanks for the info!
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Bunky- I bet you would dig the Holmes. If you like how your Model C rides this will probably be a fun bike for you as well.
The custom 29er is in the works and I have pretty much all the parts for it except for the frame, which is still being built, I'm right on the verge of buying a SE Primetime complete and running it on the freewheel side, and I'm sooooo tempted to get a Holmes 22 kit. The only thing is I work for another 2 weeks straight and then only have 2 days off before I have to move to Raleigh and will be living in a guest room for a while until I find a place and wont have anywhere to stash the bikes. It looks like it will probably just be the Wave-C and me for a while.
I know it will probably be fun, I just wont have anywhere to build/stash the bike for a while.
Somebody get me an exact measurement on the back end of one of these things and help convince me that I should just do it!!!!!
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I agree with everything CMC has to say ^^
I am running my CS at 14.5" and it looks like it could be as long as 14-7/8" maybe even 15".
Just got home from a ride and after much trial and error I have my holmes setup dialed. Slammed push stem with Hoder bars with the CS at 14.5"
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/737516_4484421389767_861129587_o.jpg)
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Oh and yes you should get one. I switched back to a 21.25" tt steadfast for the last three rides and while I can still jump, hop and do everything... the sketchyness factor is definitely higher. On the 22 holmes I never feel out of control like I am going to dead sailor. The bike fits me like my 1983 supergoose did when I was 14. Body to bike size ratio feels exactly the same.
I was watching Mullvile blast the jump room at rays last weekend and check out his setup. He is fairly short... probably 5'7" and he runs really tall bars... he has a very upright stance. The Holmes lets me run really high bars and be more upright because it has a low bb and with the CS at 14.5" I never loop out. I can lean back and pull up hard off of jumps and since I am so upright I can tuck the bike up and get a lot higher than I can on a 20" or my Model C.
Get one dude!!!
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Check out page 20 for a 22" review all the way back in 1983. I had this magazine, I must have read it a hundred times back then.
http://oldschoolmags.com/mags/BMXPlus_8301.pdf
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I bet the people who thought it was foolish back then are now the people supporting it.
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I was talking to this guy who my dad knows. The dude said he was sponsored in the 80's and had a signature bike with 22" rims
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one from today.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Jan%2001%2C%207%2039%2034%20PM.png)
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one from today.[/IMG]
Hell yeah!
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one from today.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Jan%2001%2C%207%2039%2034%20PM.png)
How tall are you? I was interested in a 22" build but I'm 5'8" so I felt I'd be better off on my 21" Sunday
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I'm 5'8" or just under. That frame is 21.75 long. Feels great!
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I changed some parts on my Faction Amero, so here is my current set-up. Right now I run a 26T/10T gear ratio, which is perfect for me (IMO there is no need for a 9T driver!). As you can see, there is still a bit more space between the sprocket and the chainstay, so at least you can choose a 28T sprocket, may be bigger (space between crank and chainstay is 5 mm or 0.2 inch). Due to the longer top tube (21.5 ") I replaced the S&M stem (53 mm/2.09 inch) with a shorter Mutiny top load stem (48 mm/1.89 inch). It feels much better to me. Next week I´ll try out different bar heights. Furthermore I will exchange the plastic pedals (ordered Deluxe metal paddles) and the tires for sure (hope the F22 foldable tires will arrive soon). The current tires have very good grip but they can't stand much psi.
Due to bad weather conditions I cant´t write a elaborate review, but my first impression is, 22" is perfect for me. I think I will never go back on a 24" bike (I used to ride a 24" WTP cruiser for the last 4 years).
current part list:
Frame: Faction Bike Co Amero Kit (21.5 TT)
Fork: Faction Bike Co Amero Kit
Wheelset: Faction Bike Co Amero Kit with a 10 T driver.
Tires: ??? (no-name product)
Stem: Mutiny Lifted 48 mm
Bar: Sunday Victory 8.32 "
Grips: REVENGE Customer Friendly Grips (Best Grips I ever had!)
Cranks: Wethepeople Royal 175 mm
Sprocket: Wethepeople Supreme 26T
Chain: KMC Z510HX
Brake equipment: all Odyssey (the new ghost brake pads are amazing!)
Seat: Fiend Team
Seatpost: Federal
BB & Headset: Eclat
Pedals: ??? plastic with metal pins
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I changed some parts on my Faction Amero, so here is my current set-up. Right now I run a 26T/10T gear ratio, which is perfect for me (IMO there is no need for a 9T driver!). As you can see, there is still a bit more space between the sprocket and the chainstay, so at least you can choose a 28T sprocket, may be bigger (space between crank and chainstay is 5 mm or 0.2 inch). Due to the longer top tube (21.5 ") I replaced the S&M stem (53 mm/2.09 inch) with a shorter Mutiny top load stem (48 mm/1.89 inch). It feels much better to me. Next week I´ll try out different bar heights. Furthermore I will exchange the plastic pedals (ordered Deluxe metal paddles) and the tires for sure (hope the F22 foldable tires will arrive soon). The current tires have very good grip but they can't stand much psi.
Due to bad weather conditions I cant´t write a elaborate review, but my first impression is, 22" is perfect for me. I think I will never go back on a 24" bike (I used to ride a 24" WTP cruiser for the last 4 years).
current part list:
Frame: Faction Bike Co Amero Kit (21.5 TT)
Fork: Faction Bike Co Amero Kit
Wheelset: Faction Bike Co Amero Kit with a 10 T driver.
Tires: ??? (no-name product)
Stem: Mutiny Lifted 48 mm
Bar: Sunday Victory 8.32 "
Grips: REVENGE Customer Friendly Grips (Best Grips I ever had!)
Cranks: Wethepeople Royal 175 mm
Sprocket: Wethepeople Supreme 26T
Chain: KMC Z510HX
Brake equipment: all Odyssey (the new ghost brake pads are amazing!)
Seat: Fiend Team
Seatpost: Federal
BB & Headset: Eclat
Pedals: ??? plastic with metal pins
I really like the standover height on that bike. The rest of the 22s I have seen look a little Killerado scooterish.
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I really like the standover height on that bike. The rest of the 22s I have seen look a little Killerado scooterish.
Yes agreed. My only complaint on the holmes is the standover... cosmetic yes but I would like it to be an inch more.
Very nice Amero! I can't wait for the faction f22 tires to show up. They said 28 days shipping to US distro then normal shipping from texas. It has been 32 days since I placed the order so I should have them soon.
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It has been 32 days since I placed the order so I should have them soon.
hahahahhahaha. HA. good luck. ;)
:cheers:
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hahahahhahaha. HA. good luck. ;)
:cheers:
lol I know but I am willing to take the risk. If I lose the money I will invoke the wrath of paypal :-)
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I really like the standover height on that bike. The rest of the 22s I have seen look a little Killerado scooterish.
T, the standovers on other 22"s are actually not short. The seat tube/standover on the Holmes 22 is listed as 9" and on the InDust Cuatro, it's 9.5 (top of seat tube down to center of bb). Lot's of 20" frames have 8" and 8.5" seat tubes.
There's actually a couple of visual effects going on: a larger wheel makes the seat tube look shorter than on a 20", even when it's not, because the top of the rear wheel comes up higher. Also, if the bb height is shifted down (not 1.75" above axles, but instead, like 1.25" above axles), then the triangles are shifted down slightly--this does make it a relatively lower-slung frame, but not because the seat tube is shorter.
I don't disagree that the taller back end look is cool though. Reminds me of classic frames like your T1 etc.
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Cullen,
I get what you are saying, but when I rode pepper's indust a few weeks back that was the one thing that stood out to me visually.
Just from an aesthetics standpoint I think another inch of stand over would do make a huge difference. But like I said its just aesthetic.
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I couldn't help myself... Decided to buy this as a congratulations present for myself for landing a new full time management job.
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Hell Yea Bunky!
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I can't wait for the faction f22 tires to show up. They said 28 days shipping to US distro then normal shipping from texas. It has been 32 days since I placed the order so I should have them soon.
I sent an e-amil to Faction regarding estimated delivery date. This is what they answered: "I think tyres will be ready before end of February. We were trying to co-ordinate for half the delivery to go the USA warehouse and half to come here (one consignment at the factory and one courier ) but it didn't work out so we've had to arrange for it to be collected by different shippers on different weeks.The factory has to manage our small order between their huge roadbike orders, unfortunately we have to keep to their timetable not ours because the F22 is a 'rebel' project for two of the factory technicians. We're lucky to have their cutting edge tech but it does mean we sometimes have to put up with delays".
I think we´ve to be patient and keep in mind that Faction is a small player in the game. I personally really appreciate that they push the market for a 22" option.
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Bunky going in!!! Nice!
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Ahh man, I need one of these. Someone do a table on one and get a photo please.
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I sent an e-amil to Faction regarding estimated delivery date. This is what they answered: "I think tyres will be ready before end of February. We were trying to co-ordinate for half the delivery to go the USA warehouse and half to come here (one consignment at the factory and one courier ) but it didn't work out so we've had to arrange for it to be collected by different shippers on different weeks.The factory has to manage our small order between their huge roadbike orders, unfortunately we have to keep to their timetable not ours because the F22 is a 'rebel' project for two of the factory technicians. We're lucky to have their cutting edge tech but it does mean we sometimes have to put up with delays".
I think we´ve to be patient and keep in mind that Faction is a small player in the game. I personally really appreciate that they push the market for a 22" option.
Just got an email from Kevin essentially stating the same thing. He offered to give me my money back. I am going to wait this out though I hope everything works out by March.
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Ahh man, I need one of these. Someone do a table on one and get a photo please.
Heading to Chicago and Milluakee tomorrow for a weekend of riding so odds are good I'll have some 22" footage.
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Ahh man, I need one of these. Someone do a table on one and get a photo please.
http://bikeguide.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3607950&postcount=277
like that?
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I sent an e-amil to Faction regarding estimated delivery date. This is what they answered: "I think tyres will be ready before end of February. We were trying to co-ordinate for half the delivery to go the USA warehouse and half to come here (one consignment at the factory and one courier ) but it didn't work out so we've had to arrange for it to be collected by different shippers on different weeks.The factory has to manage our small order between their huge roadbike orders, unfortunately we have to keep to their timetable not ours because the F22 is a 'rebel' project for two of the factory technicians. We're lucky to have their cutting edge tech but it does mean we sometimes have to put up with delays".
I think we´ve to be patient and keep in mind that Faction is a small player in the game. I personally really appreciate that they push the market for a 22" option.
I'd just like to point out that this pretty much validates what I said near the beginning of this thread that I got so much shit for...
:)
G.
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Heading to Chicago and Milluakee tomorrow for a weekend of riding so odds are good I'll have some 22" footage.
Awesome!
http://bikeguide.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3607950&postcount=277
like that?
Only taken with a camera not a potato please :)
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Potato = screen shot from video... :)
G- I have no doubt that Odyssey could have 22 inch tires, well made and on the USA shores in a timely manner.
The Faction guys are amateurs...
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Potato = screen shot from video... :)
G- I have no doubt that Odyssey could have 22 inch tires, well made and on the USA shores in a timely manner.
The Faction guys are amateurs...
I am honestly sure that we couldn't. It sounds like Faction have a factory that makes high end road tyres with some guys there who are behind the project, that is more important than anything else. I am 100% certain that our reception with our factory would be very different, we have had to push them super hard in the past to do incredibly basic stuff.
:)
G.
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I am honestly sure that we couldn't. It sounds like Faction have a factory that makes high end road tyres with some guys there who are behind the project, that is more important than anything else. I am 100% certain that our reception with our factory would be very different, we have had to push them super hard in the past to do incredibly basic stuff.
Re confederate:
I agree with G. I think the main point to realize such an uncertain economic project is to know people who are enthusiastic enough and share the same idea of progression.
The Faction guys are amateurs...
Re amateurs:
I wouldn’t call the Faction guys amateurs, because it has a slightly negative connotation. In fact they are enthusiasts with a vision to develop BMX further. Beyond that Faction is a small and relative young company but they act like a usual profit-oriented company. So why should they be amateurs? The stuff they produced so far compare well with other stuff from established companies.
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Hopefully one of my buddies has better/more footage but this is all that survived the gopro... me riding the 22 holmes through the right line at RaysMKE transferland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY3wMc75Duk
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The 22" welded revenge rims are available to pre-order. Hit up your LBS!
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I haven't been able to spend enough time on my bike to warrant needing new rims. :(
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where do you get 22" tubes?
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Same place you get tires.
Pretty sure you can fit 20 inch tubes in though. Think of the weight savings! :)
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Ok, so I've got some of the S&M/Revenge tires... What other tire options are out there right now? Posts with links to where you can purchase them get extra points!
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Same place you get tires.
Pretty sure you can fit 20 inch tubes in though. Think of the weight savings! :)
Yup 20" tube works perfectly fine.
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where do you get 22" tubes?
amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Bicycle-Tube-SCHRADER-Valve/dp/B000AOA0VU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358994688&sr=8-3&keywords=22+X+1%2C75+bicycle+tube (http://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Bicycle-Tube-SCHRADER-Valve/dp/B000AOA0VU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358994688&sr=8-3&keywords=22+X+1%2C75+bicycle+tube)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/22inchTUBES.jpg)
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I use 20" tubes in mine and like said above they work perfect.
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wet, empty park session...
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Jan%2031%2C%201%2046%2045%20PM.jpg)
Faction says their tires/rims are shipping out next week...
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(http://www.free-coaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/IMG1215-e1359681706633.jpg)
Parts list located over Mhherre (http://www.bikeguide.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215274)
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http://vimeo.com/58917580
faction in action
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Got my fedex tracking number today. I should have the f22 tires by friday!!!
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Just checked and mine says Friday too!
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Bunky, you've had a chance to ride yours much?
we want action pictures!!
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I'm in love with the chrome holmes. Looks like im saving up.
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Bunky, you've had a chance to ride yours much?
we want action pictures!!
So far, just around in the street doing simple stuff like fullcabs, manuals, and crankflips.
Waiting on pegs to get in so I can put it down some rails.
Unfortunately, I just moved to Raleigh and I don't know anybody here yet, so I doubt I'll be getting any action shots anytime soon.
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The amero is showing up in the usa.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/535045_604856166195639_1798059708_n.jpg)
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Oh yeah buddy I got mine too! I lost 15.2 ounces of rotational weight! They are clones of the fly ruben tire the only difference are the center knobs. Heck the label even says "rubena". Just railed corners on flat cement. They grip awesome right away!
Sorry for the giant pics.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/860084_4785269870791_1389572341_o.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/859501_4785165108172_1008583142_o.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/859841_4785169628285_2104133230_o.jpg)
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Got some pegs in today, and should get my Faction tires in tomorrow :)
Now I just have to sand the chrome off my brake mounts so I can fit some brakes on there and I'll be good to go.
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Got some pegs in today, and should get my Faction tires in tomorrow :)
Now I just have to sand the chrome off my brake mounts so I can fit some brakes on there and I'll be good to go.
OMFG the f22 tires are just as good as the folding rubens. No break in period. Just got a good session in at RaysMTB. 22 has arrived be it s and m or faction... these tires pushed it over the edge into legitimacy.
Rays is crawling with hotties right now and it is only Thursday. Women's weekend this weekend at RyasMTB. Holla!
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/860089_4792002559104_1583032691_o.jpg)
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Oh yeah buddy I got mine too! I lost 15.2 ounces of rotational weight!
Wow, I just noticed this! You were running the S&M tires before, right? How did you determine it was 15.2 ounces? That seems like a lot!
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The S&M tires are 29 ounces. The Faction tires are around 19 ounces. math plus math equals numbers. :)
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The S&M tires are 29 ounces. The Faction tires are around 19 ounces. math plus math equals numbers. :)
Ya basically.... I have a cheap fish scale that isn't that accurate plus or minus 2 ounce accuracy. I'll get it weighed tonight at rays they have a good scale.
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Damn Scott that 22 looks incredible. You guys need smartphones so we get better pictures :D
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22 does look good Scott.
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For you guys with the Holmes kits / wheels with 9T drivers, what gear ratio are you running?
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The S&M tires are 29 ounces. The Faction tires are around 19 ounces. math plus math equals numbers. :)
Haha, I know how to do math... I've just never seen any of the weights posted for these things and was just wondering if he saw them somewhere or if he weighed them himself.
I can't believe the Faction tires weigh less than the folding Rubens!
For you guys with the Holmes kits / wheels with 9T drivers, what gear ratio are you running?
I'm running 28/9 right now because I like a higher gearing than most people. I think I'm going to be switching it down to 27/9 or maybe 26/9 so that I can get my back end a little longer, though. I'm weird and like long backends. I've got my 20 around 14.5 and it still feels too short.
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For you guys with the Holmes kits / wheels with 9T drivers, what gear ratio are you running?
I'm running 28/9 right now because I like a higher gearing than most people.
Wow, 28-9 (or even 26-9) is really har done one of those! From a quick math sesh, I figured your average 25-9 on a 20inch equivalent would be 23-9, so a 25-9 one a 22inch would be a hard ratio, like a 28-9 is on a 20.
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For the longest time, I rode a 28/9 on my 24". It was hard as shit to pedal and I loved it. I am back on a 28/10 now though.
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Friend of mine with a holmes currently has 27/10 and is talking about going to 26/10.
I'm running 25/9 on the 20 and 22 bikes.
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Just got another ride in. You know I take back the comment about the faction tires being ruben clones. They are like a combo of the ruben sidewalls with the khe dirt tire tread. Like the best of both tires put together.
I have run on my holmes
25x9
28x10
30x12
30x12 felt the best to me but I wanted the mulville camo parts and the biggest chainwheel is 28t... and profile doesn't make a 11t elite driver so I went with a 10t driver. It used to feel really tall but the faction tires roll so smooth and are light enough to accelerate much faster it actually feels like 55 gear inches when it really is 60 or so gear inches.
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Oh my bike came in at 24 pounds 13 ounces. Thanks for the compliments. I'll get proper pics too. Next friday is the fit/s&m dealer night... really looking forward to what those guys will think of my holmes. I was just told that april the revenge mainline tires and welded rims should be available.
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Would definitely be interested to try 22, but is gonna be rare to see them. Hopefully someone will be at the park on one
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Amero in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF9VG1hP3Uo&feature=youtu.be
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Has anyone tried running a Sunday 24" with some 22" wheels?
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I ordered a spare F22 tire late Sunday night and it was delivered today!
Rode for a bit today. Some 22 Holmes luv. Also saw Ralph Wiggum's Dirt Bros throw back today... super nice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1gsDY6Mdng
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Has anyone tried running a Sunday 24" with some 22" wheels?
As an experiment, I did it with a We The People Avenger 24", which had the same geo as the original shorter Model C. I posted pics earlier in this thread. Other than your rear brakes not lining up, it's definitely doable. Not as good as a frame designed around 22"s though.
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Someone at the S&M FIT party last friday snapped this photo of me on the 22 Holmes. I was right behind Brian Foster on this run!
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374476_4856981023525_782303939_n.jpg)
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awesome!
Did you put a head badge on that frame? or is that just a sticker?
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They sell the headtube badge in most online shops. I put one on my LTF when they did the first batch before including it on frames.
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awesome!
Did you put a head badge on that frame? or is that just a sticker?
It is the headbadge. I haven't drilled the holes yet. Stupid question but I am not sure what size bit and tap to use. Anyone know?
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Today Rick Moliterno, Stomp'in Stu, Chris Doyle and Jeremy Ball were at RaysMTB. Stu was the only one I got a chance to really talk and ride with for any length of time. Stu told me he thinks BMX racing should be on 22" wheels. He is the first person I have met face to face that remembers the handful of 22" wheels bikes back around 1983.
Doyle and Ball... they come out all of the time so hopefully when the time is right I can get them to give a 22" wheel BMX a try.
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It is the headbadge. I haven't drilled the holes yet. Stupid question but I am not sure what size bit and tap to use. Anyone know?
M4 x .7mm metric tap
3.3mm drill bit
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So what rims are availible for 22" bikes at them moment?
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M4 x .7mm metric tap
3.3mm drill bit
Thanks Dude!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/v/803960_4902342757540_1584742736_n.jpg?oh=5f1cc24f661b8de53496a6cc0c11d82f&oe=5142C6EB&__gda__=1363385182_be3365e1846999e29fba6a4ae33c6daa)
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So what rims are availible for 22" bikes at them moment?
Right now you either need to buy the faction wheels (only available with whole Amero kit) or buy the Revenge wheel-set.
I think CMC has some pinned Velocity aero rims in 22 left.
The S&M guys told me that they will have a welded aftermarket rim and a folding high pressure dirt tire available in April.
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I think CMC has some pinned Velocity aero rims in 22 left.
actually, man, they're all gone. several pairs being ridden Austin and the rest shipped out around the country.
OMFG the f22 tires are just as good as the folding rubens. No break in period. Just got a good session in at RaysMTB. 22 has arrived be it s and m or faction... these tires pushed it over the edge into legitimacy.
Rays is crawling with hotties right now and it is only Thursday. Women's weekend this weekend at RyasMTB. Holla!
yeah! finally got to spend some time riding the F22 tires. i was surprised how well they immediately fit to the rim--both the original Zeitgeist rim and our Velocity rim. absolutely no bulges hops or malformities. aired up, roll extremely smooth. great tire. :cheers:
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actually, man, they're all gone. several pairs being ridden Austin and the rest shipped out around the country.
yeah! finally got to spend some time riding the F22 tires. i was surprised how well they immediately fit to the rim--both the original Zeitgeist rim and our Velocity rim. absolutely no bulges hops or malformities. aired up, roll extremely smooth. great tire. :cheers:
Ya they are for real. I bet the S&M rim will rock but the mainline tire won't be as good as the F22.
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I'm holding out for the mainline tire. I want a bit more knobby than the F22 tire has. and, I'm hoping their cheaper... But, if a bunch of F22 tires show up in the states, I'll pick some up for sure. Just don't want to pay 50 bucks a tire.
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I'm holding out in hopes the S&M Mainline is great also because I need dirt tires also. I also hope they offer them in more then one size. The F22 tires are wide and my frame barely clears the current tires S&M is selling.
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I'm holding out in hopes the S&M Mainline is great also because I need dirt tires also. I also hope they offer them in more then one size. The F22 tires are wide and my frame barely clears the current tires S&M is selling.
Ya the F22's are BIG... way bigger than the innova.
I agree two sizes would be nice.
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(http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo113/smatual/GorgeRd_zpsf2080e2d.jpg)
two of my buds took a road trip to NZ. Holmes in the air.
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Ya the F22's are BIG... way bigger than the innova.
I agree two sizes would be nice.
I'm hoping like hell for 2 sizes because if they only do monster truck size then I'll have to stick with the Innova tires on the rear.
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(http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo113/smatual/GorgeRd_zpsf2080e2d.jpg)
two of my buds took a road trip to NZ. Holmes in the air.
Awesome!! That place looks fun as hell. :cheers:
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22 Holmes vs. Faction Amero!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9iR3D_JbVc
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how do we embed videos?
great write up/video comparison!
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Mar%2022%2C%206%2001%2004%20PM.jpg)
I took a full link out of the chain. I'd like to put a half link in though. Just don't have one laying around at the moment.
I took a few spacers out and put them above the stem for now. Four inch head tube leaves a bunch of steer tube sticking up.
Only got to manual it in the front street area and it felt fine. Need to get it on the jumps but I think it's going to feel weird being so much shorter.
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Word on the street is, S&M has a new frame in the works....
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Any more info?
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74
71
21.625 & 22.125
fat tire clearance
not called The Holmes
don't quote me on all that, though. Something might change. They should be going into production this month.
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74
71
21.625 & 22.125
fat tire clearance
not called The Holmes
don't quote me on all that, though. Something might change. They should be going into production this month.
Do you know the ST angle?
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I heard they are going to be making 22" Pitchfork XLT-T soon also.
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74
71 <-- seat tube angle
I heard through a different source (internet) that the rims are on the boat too.
I just want tires. :/
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74
71 <-- seat tube angle
I heard through a different source (internet) that the rims are on the boat too.
I just want tires. :/
I want tires most also...
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SM posted 22" and 24" ATF protos on instagram
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can you post pics here for the lamers that don't have instagram? and oh yea, the new frame is called the atf.... ;)
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can you post pics here for the lamers that don't have instagram? and oh yea, the new frame is called the atf.... ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/oBXpL1ul.jpg)
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Anyone want to buy my chrome 22 holmes? I want a 22 ATF now...
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Anyone want to buy my chrome 22 holmes? I want a 22 ATF now...
That TT length? Chrome frame and chrome fork right?
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Anyone want to buy my chrome 22 holmes? I want a 22 ATF now...
That TT length? Chrome frame and chrome fork right?
22 inch top tube. Chrome frame and black fork.
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Anyone want to buy my chrome 22 holmes? I want a 22 ATF now...
That TT length? Chrome frame and chrome fork right?
22 inch top tube. Chrome frame and black fork.
How much for just the frame and where are you located?
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seems like you'd like the Holmes more, bunky, with it's steeper head angle...
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Anyone want to buy my chrome 22 holmes? I want a 22 ATF now...
That TT length? Chrome frame and chrome fork right?
22 inch top tube. Chrome frame and black fork.
How much for just the frame and where are you located?
I'd let it go for $300. Not bad for an almost brand new frame that goes for over 400 usually.
I'm located in Raleigh NC.
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seems like you'd like the Holmes more, bunky, with it's steeper head angle...
I just emailed S&M and it looks like the headtube angle is the same. Only real difference is the seat tube angle.
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Pretty sure it's gunna be 74. That's what they've been telling us for weeks.
sounds like the welded ARC rims are in the USA as well. sick! Now we just need the tires...
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22" ARC rims will be in my hands Wednesday!
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Nice!
Do you know if there are chrome ones?
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Nice!
Do you know if there are chrome ones?
No there are no chrome. I don't know if there are other colors... I just asked for chrome or black.
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(http://distilleryimage8.s3.amazonaws.com/fa2c2322b1c611e2b2f422000a9f1255_7.jpg)
ATF 22" proto. I'm curious to try a 22 but I don't think they're available in the down underverse.
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^
74.25 Ha
71 SA
that thing looks nice.
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I cannot say I am stoked about this music . . . but I am stoked on all the work Bret Parker and his crew have been doing on their trails in Lubbock Texas. Brett riding an InDust 2ton 22":
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Bret_Lubbock_edit_vimeo_screen_shot_zps67e345fe.jpg)
http://vimeo.com/66570357 (http://vimeo.com/66570357)
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(http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo113/smatual/2YearTabes_zps887b5e61.png)
Holmes, in flight.
(http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo113/smatual/ATF_zps0244fdbe.jpg)
ATF
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That ATF is lovely in green.
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(http://distilleryimage8.s3.amazonaws.com/fa2c2322b1c611e2b2f422000a9f1255_7.jpg)
ATF 22" proto. I'm curious to try a 22 but I don't think they're available in the down underverse.
I spy a Fairdale Weekender in that pic!!!
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I spy a Fairdale Weekender in that pic!!!
a Weekender is really high on my list of next bike. gotta sell a couple first though. !
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God I want a 22. I am just nervous about the tire/rim selection.
How are those Faction tires in durability and grip?
Does any mailorder have those faction tires?
Does revenge make a smooth tread tire?
Are the rims that S&M offer strong?
I really would love to move up to 22 since I am 6'8. I just don't like knobby tires and don't want to have to replace the rims frequently.
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says in their store they do free shipping to the US and europe. the new f22 tyre looks like a good all around tread pattern
(http://www.factionbikeco.com/controlblog/Faction-bikes-store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/y/tyref22store.jpg)
http://www.factionbikeco.com/controlblog/Faction-bikes-store/index.php/tyres/f22-tyre.html (http://www.factionbikeco.com/controlblog/Faction-bikes-store/index.php/tyres/f22-tyre.html)
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The Faction tires seem hard to get in the USA. You can get them but it's currently not as easy as a regular tire.
S&M will be putting out a 22 inch Mainline tire in the Fall. It won't be super smooth but will be more smooth than their current offering.
S&M/Revenge have two rims out currently. The ARC rim is welded while the other one is not. I am riding the non-welded rim and am not having issues but can visually see the seam where the rim is pinned. I also only weigh 150-ish.
I would think at 6'8" that you would want a custom length frame. S&M has their new ATF that comes in 22.125 but that still seems small for a giant...
*free shipping from Faction applies to their complete kits, I think.
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The Faction tires seem hard to get in the USA. You can get them but it's currently not as easy as a regular tire.
S&M will be putting out a 22 inch Mainline tire in the Fall. It won't be super smooth but will be more smooth than their current offering.
S&M/Revenge have two rims out currently. The ARC rim is welded while the other one is not. I am riding the non-welded rim and am not having issues but can visually see the seam where the rim is pinned. I also only weigh 150-ish.
I would think at 6'8" that you would want a custom length frame. S&M has their new ATF that comes in 22.125 but that still seems small for a giant...
*free shipping from Faction applies to their complete kits, I think.
That is what I was afraid about the Faction tires.
It sucks waiting for a good tire. When it comes to grips and tires I am very picky,
I am kinda harsh on wheels I am 275lbs I just want something that can take a beating.
I have a custom 21.5 Howler with a slightly Higher BB (12"). I just think moving to a 22" wheel might be more comfortable. Tried a 24 felt to sluggish. I was thinking the 22 would be the happy medium.
When I have enough money and when their are better choices might get a custom Holmes.
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If you're okay on the 21.5 then I think you'd be fine with any of the production frames available.
Top tube lengths from currently available frames;
Indust 21.75
AFT 21.65 & 22.125
Faction 21.5
Holmes 21.25 & 21.7 (this frame has a 69 seat tube angle so the TT lengths are weird)
You can always contact Faction about tires. I know others in the USA want them too.
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I can ride a 21.25 with out being to uncomfortable but, prefer 21.5.
When the time comes I'll probably go with S&M since I can some what customize it.
Also waiting if the put the 22 ATF the custom frames.
Would the 69 Seat tube be that noticeable?
I sent Faction an email a little bit ago.
How much better is the 22 on the knees from hard landings?
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brobmx on Ebay has (or did have) the Faction tires for sale in the USA.
EDIT- Nevermind, looks like he might be sold out of them.........
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I can ride a 21.25 with out being to uncomfortable but, prefer 21.5.
When the time comes I'll probably go with S&M since I can some what customize it.
Also waiting if the put the 22 ATF the custom frames.
Would the 69 Seat tube be that noticeable?
I sent Faction an email a little bit ago.
How much better is the 22 on the knees from hard landings?
I haven't really focused on the hard landings angle... but I guess from a physics standpoint, a tire of the same width is actually holding more air due to being bigger, and a larger rim with a slightly mellower curve is going to absorb an impact more than a smaller diameter one. I know that 24" BMX's do feel smoother to drop off to flat landings (although I kinda hate flat landings these days--always looking for a grass embankment or true dirt landing).
Over on bmxmuseum, tecnic1 posted up his InDust proto next to a Holmes 22. The InDust proto he has was a single frame with a higher bb and shorter back end that was a proto for street/park bike. The InDust 2ton is the trail frame that I have that has a medium height bb (21.8"tt, 12.25"bb and 14.25"cs--where I have my axle now, not slammed but is close the front). Talk to Vernon at InDust if you are interested in one of those, or a even possibly a different version. We have been talking about doing another higher-bb park/street frame. I have never had the opportunity to compare the Holmes up close, but my impression is that the more laid-back seat tube angle actually makes the 22"tt Holmes a tad shorter than the 2ton when you compare "cockpit room" (or front-center, i.e. bb to front axle).
(http://i.imgur.com/AYLkwAv.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=451009&p=72 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=451009&p=72)
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How much better is the 22 on the knees from hard landings?
As CMC pointed out there will be a factor related to the tyre. For a given width and pressure a smaller wheel is actually less stiff than a bigger one, so a smaller wheel would be easier on the knees. But in reality you can usually run a bigger wheel at a slightly lower pressure and get the same kind of feel and rolling resistance so that probably puts it back to the big wheel (but it will be marginal).
Another more significant factor will be spoke length. If the spokes are all the same diameter, then the longer spokes of a bigger wheel will be less stiff in proportion to the length. So a 200mm spoke will be half as stiff as a 100mm spoke (ignoring minor factors due to bends etc). But the spoke is not the whole story, the bigger rim will sit nearer to flat so this will make it seem a little less stiff too. You will also have longer fork legs, which will be less stiff than short ones.
It will be hard to quantify with all these factors and all the possible different ways you could land, but since you already tried both 20" and 24" bikes I would just say it will feel about half way between those two ::)
:)
G.
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22" wheels are better. Period.
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http://cruiserrevolution.com/2013/07/10/mike-day-tries-out-some-bigger-wheels/ (http://cruiserrevolution.com/2013/07/10/mike-day-tries-out-some-bigger-wheels/)
"In the article, Mike talks about his desire to put together “the biggest-wheeled bike that was allowed to race” in the 20- inch class."
"According to the UCI rule book that meant the diameter of the wheels, including the inflated tires, could not exceed 22 1/2 inches (57 cm)."
(http://cruiserrevolution.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/mikeday.jpg)
Hmmm. Maybe he should have done 12.5" bb, not 11.5" bb, if he wanted it to feel the "same" as his 20. Gotta look at bb height relative to axles, not relative to the ground. ;)
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^ Redline has one as well. Pretty funny to me that so many people thought 22 inch wheels was a dumb idea and now...
the fucked thing is, the OS tires that Redline/GT are using is just centimeters smaller than the 22 inch wheels everyone else is running.
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If it takes off in racing then it has a good chance. Factories understand the idea of a race and any advantage being worth pursuing. If it is a different ERTO to the Faction ones then that is a pisser, but it may well be that the Faction ones would lead to a tyre that was too big for the ******* UCI...
:)
G.
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i think im gonna have to bite the bullet and get a 22"
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new flatland bike yeah ben?
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my back is fully fucked. might be time to sack it all in
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my back is fully fucked. might be time to sack it all in
what did you do to injure it?
Have you tried Bikram yoga? That (and surgery) saved my back.
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i stood up and it went. i always get back issues cos im tall and my job involves a lot of picking stuff up off the floor
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39380852/Photo%20Aug%2009%2C%207%2006%2024%20PM.png)
MattyBMX. ATF
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roasting
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If it takes off in racing then it has a good chance. Factories understand the idea of a race and any advantage being worth pursuing. If it is a different ERTO to the Faction ones then that is a pisser, but it may well be that the Faction ones would lead to a tyre that was too big for the ******* UCI...
:)
G.
I measured the diameter with the stock Faction Zeitgeist tires inflated and they are less than 22.5". Faction guys have already been racing in the UK in the 20" class. The F22 may be slightly taller, haven't had a chance to measure it yet.
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Felt is jumping into the 22 game and offering a complete.
http://m.feltbicycles.com/productcatalog/product/1/57734
(http://livefelt2014.wadev.com/Resources/ProductPhotos/Bikes/CATCH22_1.jpg)
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One of the blokes who runs Faction was at the jam today and I had a go on his bike. It felt awesome to ride, seemed to iron out any of the little bumps in the park and size-wise didnt feel too much different to a Bmx.
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Just had this made up by standard.. 22" wheel, 22" top tube STA. can't wait to get my grubby mitts on it!
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/image.jpg) (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/christhejob/media/image.jpg.html)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/image-1.jpg) (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/christhejob/media/image-1.jpg.html)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/image-2.jpg) (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/christhejob/media/image-2.jpg.html)
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Good choice on the gas tank gusset.
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A standard isn't a standard if it isn't rocking a ht gusset!
Good choice on the gas tank gusset.
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Spoken like a true gentleman.
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A standard isn't a standard if it isn't rocking a ht gusset!
truth, i dont know why anyone would buy a standard without the gusset
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A standard isn't a standard if it isn't rocking a ht gusset!
truth, i dont know why anyone would buy a standard without the gusset
I like the chainstay-mount brakes too. Although.... to get super mid-school, the hole through the seat tube as a cable stop in fact worked the best for 990's. Straight line pull with very short straddle cable for minimal flex. Standard was the first one to start the long straddle cable around the seat tube thing, if I remember right....
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I'm fucking retarded, about a week after selling my bmx I'm already getting the itch to buy one again despite hardly riding my old one haha. Definitely won't be a 20" this time though. For those who have tried both, what feels better 22" or a Model C? I've ridden 26" for years and I couldn't get back into riding such small wheels on my bmx.
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22 is so tempting
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God I want to get into 22 but. The tire options are so shit and don't want to spend almost 100$ on the Faction tires.
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I never liked the cable through the seat tube to be honest.. Bloody cable always fraying, not enough room to swing a cat let alone wire up a straddle cable behind some shitawful 44tooth sprocket. The long straddle took a load of grief away and I never noticed any extra flex!
I like the chainstay-mount brakes too. Although.... to get super mid-school, the hole through the seat tube as a cable stop in fact worked the best for 990's. Straight line pull with very short straddle cable for minimal flex. Standard was the first one to start the long straddle cable around the seat tube thing, if I remember right....
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(http://bmxmuseum.com/image/img_20130707_104331_blowup.jpg) 22" wheels, 23"tt, 71ºsta, (race tubing up front) custom Holmes. At 6'4" its the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. Handles just like my 20,but a little more stable and WAY faster.
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I'm fucking retarded, about a week after selling my bmx I'm already getting the itch to buy one again despite hardly riding my old one haha. Definitely won't be a 20" this time though. For those who have tried both, what feels better 22" or a Model C? I've ridden 26" for years and I couldn't get back into riding such small wheels on my bmx.
To me the 22" still feels VERY much on the BMX side of things while the Model C (and most other 24" non race frames I have rode) feel like a 24" but give you that taste of ramping like what a 20" gives. It sounds like if you don't want the feel of a 20" you should try your hand on the 24" before the 22". These are just my two cents though..... what the fuck do I know anyway?
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I'm fucking retarded, about a week after selling my bmx I'm already getting the itch to buy one again despite hardly riding my old one haha. Definitely won't be a 20" this time though. For those who have tried both, what feels better 22" or a Model C? I've ridden 26" for years and I couldn't get back into riding such small wheels on my bmx.
The model C has an awkwardly high bb and I felt way too hunched over the front, plus my foot hits the front tire on xups. Granted I'm 6'4" with size 15 shoes. I also found it difficult to do tabes or whips on the model c whereas my holmes and my old amero both whipped around just like a 20. My 2cents.
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22lyfe, I am jealous of that back yard.
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I'm fucking retarded, about a week after selling my bmx I'm already getting the itch to buy one again despite hardly riding my old one haha. Definitely won't be a 20" this time though. For those who have tried both, what feels better 22" or a Model C? I've ridden 26" for years and I couldn't get back into riding such small wheels on my bmx.
To me the 22" still feels VERY much on the BMX side of things while the Model C (and most other 24" non race frames I have rode) feel like a 24" but give you that taste of ramping like what a 20" gives. It sounds like if you don't want the feel of a 20" you should try your hand on the 24" before the 22". These are just my two cents though..... what the fuck do I know anyway?
I agree with that. 24"s are the most versatile. You can go from concrete bowls to rough mtb jumps, plus ride 20 miles around town. On the other hand, for me, 22"s are a 20" replacement. It's just sort of a proportional upsizing the same as we've been doing with longer top tubes over the years (and more recently, taller bars). Everyone's riding bigger trails, bigger ramps, bigger street gaps/drops, it just makes sense.
If I could only have 2 bikes, I would do 22" bmx and 26" mtb-dj-4x. But, if I could only have one bike, it would be a 24" bmx. Similarly, if someone loved their 20", then as a second bike, I would suggest to them to go with a 24" (not 22" because it's not different enough), or maybe a 26" mtb-dj if they were riding rougher terrain. I'll admit, at first I did not like the Model C when it came with 7.25" bars, the 21.25"tt, and the high bb. But when I started riding friends' Model C's and Wave C's with 21.75"tt and 22"tt and taller bars, I thought they felt great. There's a lot of guys around here who are shredding them. No longer are 24"s just the 'bar cruzer' bike. It's disappointing to not see more of the bmx world embracing bigger wheels, and really repping them with pros and video parts. Seems like Sunday has given it the most valiant effort. It's worth it.
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22lyfe, I am jealous of that back yard.
Thanks man, that pic is a few months old, some parts on the bike have changed and a lot of the yard has changed. Diggin every day.
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22lyfe - what sort of 20" frames did you ride in the past? I think I like the high BB on the Model C because a lot of my 20" frames used to have higher BBs. Another question.....what other 24" bikes did you ride where your foot DID NOT hit the tire on X-Ups, it would be strange if it only happened to you on the Sunday 24". I am also going to be the dick and say that I feel like my Model C is my favorite bike for whipping around in the air and doing tables. I actually think that it is easier to do oppo tables on my Model C. I for whatever reason can lay those a lot more flat on my 24" than I can on my 20".
We can both agree that I would ramp the shit out of those dirt jumps on any bike I had the opportunity to ride. Looking mint.
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Before bumping up to 22's I was riding a custom standard 250L with a 22" top tube and prior to that a DK R/T with a 22"tt as well. While they were the best feeling 20's I'd ever ridden, I'm really just too damn tall for a 20". I've ridden various peoples 24's and 26's over the years that showed up to the trails, but in my opinion none of them felt right and I could never go as high on them as on my 20". Granted I was riding other peoples bikes set up for them with a tt length certainly too short for me. My feet hit on xups on all big wheeled bikes and thats a major disadvantage, which would be solved with a longer tt. Also, the sunday I rode did have smaller bars than what I'm used to. I bet if it had a set of 9"s on it, I wouldn't have felt so hunched over from the high bb. The wave c was certainly one of the better 24's I've taken laps on, but in comparison to the feel of a traditional BMX bike, I think 22's are the way to go.
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(https://sphotos-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/1240535_10151609978356048_263516610_n.jpg) Standard posted some pics of my 22" trailboss, can't wait to ride this beast!
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Just saw that Trail Boss on Instagram, looks amazing.
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The Trail Boss looks great. Lovin' the Hemp color on that. I need to send mine in one of these days to get refinished in either Hemp Tan or Coffee Brown.
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That trail boss is the boss of all trail bosses.
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I'm fucking retarded, about a week after selling my bmx I'm already getting the itch to buy one again despite hardly riding my old one haha. Definitely won't be a 20" this time though. For those who have tried both, what feels better 22" or a Model C? I've ridden 26" for years and I couldn't get back into riding such small wheels on my bmx.
To me the 22" still feels VERY much on the BMX side of things while the Model C (and most other 24" non race frames I have rode) feel like a 24" but give you that taste of ramping like what a 20" gives. It sounds like if you don't want the feel of a 20" you should try your hand on the 24" before the 22". These are just my two cents though..... what the fuck do I know anyway?
I agree with that. 24"s are the most versatile. You can go from concrete bowls to rough mtb jumps, plus ride 20 miles around town. On the other hand, for me, 22"s are a 20" replacement. It's just sort of a proportional upsizing the same as we've been doing with longer top tubes over the years (and more recently, taller bars). Everyone's riding bigger trails, bigger ramps, bigger street gaps/drops, it just makes sense.
If I could only have 2 bikes, I would do 22" bmx and 26" mtb-dj-4x. But, if I could only have one bike, it would be a 24" bmx. Similarly, if someone loved their 20", then as a second bike, I would suggest to them to go with a 24" (not 22" because it's not different enough), or maybe a 26" mtb-dj if they were riding rougher terrain. I'll admit, at first I did not like the Model C when it came with 7.25" bars, the 21.25"tt, and the high bb. But when I started riding friends' Model C's and Wave C's with 21.75"tt and 22"tt and taller bars, I thought they felt great. There's a lot of guys around here who are shredding them. No longer are 24"s just the 'bar cruzer' bike. It's disappointing to not see more of the bmx world embracing bigger wheels, and really repping them with pros and video parts. Seems like Sunday has given it the most valiant effort. It's worth it.
This makes a lot of sense. I did nearly 30 miles in 3 days on my waveC (two 13s and a 3) and it was a pleasure, would have a been a bit of a pain on my 20".
If I was tall I am sure that a 22 instead of a 20 would make a lot of sense too... but I am a short arse so no problems there.
Part of what I love about the waveC is the longer chainstays, makes bunnyhops feel so much more poppy to me (if that makes any sense), obviously not so good for spins etc but I couldn't care less about tailwhips etc might have to look at a longer back end for my 20"...
If I had to choose 2 bikes as you say, I think I would be tempted to make a 22" replace my 20 and 24 too... but that is never going to happen.. but if I had to have a 22" as well as my 20" and 24" it would be interesting to see which I ended up riding most.
:)
G.
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i feel like it would make perfect sense that a longer frame would feel easier to hop on, lets you get the front end up higher before lifting the rear.
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I'm fucking retarded, about a week after selling my bmx I'm already getting the itch to buy one again despite hardly riding my old one haha. Definitely won't be a 20" this time though. For those who have tried both, what feels better 22" or a Model C? I've ridden 26" for years and I couldn't get back into riding such small wheels on my bmx.
To me the 22" still feels VERY much on the BMX side of things while the Model C (and most other 24" non race frames I have rode) feel like a 24" but give you that taste of ramping like what a 20" gives. It sounds like if you don't want the feel of a 20" you should try your hand on the 24" before the 22". These are just my two cents though..... what the fuck do I know anyway?
I agree with that. 24"s are the most versatile. You can go from concrete bowls to rough mtb jumps, plus ride 20 miles around town. On the other hand, for me, 22"s are a 20" replacement. It's just sort of a proportional upsizing the same as we've been doing with longer top tubes over the years (and more recently, taller bars). Everyone's riding bigger trails, bigger ramps, bigger street gaps/drops, it just makes sense.
If I could only have 2 bikes, I would do 22" bmx and 26" mtb-dj-4x. But, if I could only have one bike, it would be a 24" bmx. Similarly, if someone loved their 20", then as a second bike, I would suggest to them to go with a 24" (not 22" because it's not different enough), or maybe a 26" mtb-dj if they were riding rougher terrain. I'll admit, at first I did not like the Model C when it came with 7.25" bars, the 21.25"tt, and the high bb. But when I started riding friends' Model C's and Wave C's with 21.75"tt and 22"tt and taller bars, I thought they felt great. There's a lot of guys around here who are shredding them. No longer are 24"s just the 'bar cruzer' bike. It's disappointing to not see more of the bmx world embracing bigger wheels, and really repping them with pros and video parts. Seems like Sunday has given it the most valiant effort. It's worth it.
CMC sir... I couldn't agree more.
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i feel like it would make perfect sense that a longer frame would feel easier to hop on, lets you get the front end up higher before lifting the rear.
Yes. But it has sort of crept up on me how short the back end of my 20" is... years ago we had 15" long back ends and did everything we could to get them down, filing dropouts etc... but I think 14- 14,1/4" was my perfect length and now I cant do that...
:)
G.
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The Trail Boss looks great. Lovin' the Hemp color on that. I need to send mine in one of these days to get refinished in either Hemp Tan or Coffee Brown.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8285/7742771278_08b85b92d2_b.jpg)
Did they ever come in this tan color or is this a respray?
Also that 22" Trailboss is awesome
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That bike is BOSS!
Seriously classy as hell!
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The Trail Boss looks great. Lovin' the Hemp color on that. I need to send mine in one of these days to get refinished in either Hemp Tan or Coffee Brown.
(http://)
Did they ever come in this tan color or is this a respray?
Also that 22" Trailboss is awesome
Tan, olive, and brown were some of the more common colors on the original Trail Boss frames (around Iowa anyways).
Pretty sure that one is a respray, I think it belongs to tsage on here.
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/20130913_191403.jpg) Got my frame n 22" chrome arcs today, should be shredding this sucker next week!
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Have they released welded badass 22" Arc rims yet?
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Have they released welded badass 22" Arc rims yet?
They sure have, had mine laced up yesterday (http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/20130914_143540-1.jpg)
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Where are y'all getting those things?
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http://www.cheapgoodsbmx.com/Cheap_Goods/HOME.html
that is one of the worst websites I have ever seen but the guy is legit.
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http://www.cheapgoodsbmx.com/Cheap_Goods/HOME.html
that is one of the worst websites I have ever seen but the guy is legit.
Heh, yeah, for sure! He is. Sometimes well marketed stuff/shops/etc are crap, but sometimes badly marketed ones are great/chill. Part of the greatness of bmx--not everything is slick all the time. Other friends get their design tight through great partnerships, but just like greatness in other areas of life, I'd prefer a personal connection to a slick presentation.
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So does the Holmes kit come with the welded aftermarket Arc rims or some no-name pinned jams? I can't really figure out what the deal is.
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Holmes kit comes with pinned Revenge rims. We've been riding then pretty hard with no issues.
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/20130913_191403.jpg) Got my frame n 22" chrome arcs today, should be shredding this sucker next week!
This is gonna look fucking awesome. Looking forward to the finished pics.
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So does the Holmes kit come with the welded aftermarket Arc rims or some no-name pinned jams? I can't really figure out what the deal is.
There are a few sellers on ebay that have holmes & atf kits with the new chrome welded rims. The old black rims were pinned, but all current revenge rims are welded.
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This is gonna look fucking awesome. Looking forward to the finished pics.
I can't wait to throw it together! My headset and bb are sitting on a buddy's desk and he already took off for interbike so I probably won't be able to build it up until next week... At least it gives me another week to let this leg heal.
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I emailed Faction about distros in the US and different tire sizes.
Good to hear from you.
Yes we have tire distro in the US, Bruce Blevins at TheOtdoorsStore is about to re-stock with our foldable street patern F22.
There are alternative tires at 2.1 and 2.2 which my bro uses on his race bike, they're not high pressure like the F22s but they're the right width and not a dirt tread.
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laced this bad boy up!
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1371476_10201101022548838_1345453211_n.jpg?oh=d63aeacb780cd551dca2742d9c15c9dc&oe=523EACB3)
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/20130919_174458-1.jpg) there she is!
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Is that Mainline tire going to come in a size for the rear?
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Is that Mainline tire going to come in a size for the rear?
It comes in 2.425 and 2.1.
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The Trail Boss looks great. Lovin' the Hemp color on that. I need to send mine in one of these days to get refinished in either Hemp Tan or Coffee Brown.
(http://)
Did they ever come in this tan color or is this a respray?
Also that 22" Trailboss is awesome
Tan, olive, and brown were some of the more common colors on the original Trail Boss frames (around Iowa anyways).
Pretty sure that one is a respray, I think it belongs to tsage on here.
Yeah it does. I think I want to build one up sometime.
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neil harrington needs to ride these
What ever happened to that guy? I liked watching him ride.
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/Screenshot_2013-09-25-07-36-50-1.png) The new ride, swapping out the cranks, stem & sprocket later this week, ill get some better pics then. I just couldn't wait to get er dirty, rides soooo good!
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NICE!!!
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oosh that looks good.
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/IMG_20131001_164324.jpg) Little side by side comparison of the f22, innova and meghna widths. The f22 was too wide for my trail boss, so I bumped down to the meghna that shipped with my Amero. I also ordered a set of innovas from empire just in case the meghnas has any of the sidewall blowout issues I'd heard about. Meghna fits great and has been flawless on the arc rim so far. On another note, Moliterno stated that all standard 22's from here on out will have clearance for a 2.5 rear tire.
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http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/4112225695.html. If anyone is looking to pick up a 22, my buddy is selling his BARELY ridden complete holmes.
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Looks like more people are running the meghana as a rear tire.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201248621518720&set=o.250627645081704&type=1&theater
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/v/q81/s720x720/1370291_10201248593118010_352177428_n.jpg?oh=4e3b853b8e154d5df8fc3036b87be73d&oe=525E3212)
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Looks like more people are running the meghana as a rear tire.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201248621518720&set=o.250627645081704&type=1&theater
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/v/q81/s720x720/1370291_10201248593118010_352177428_n.jpg?oh=4e3b853b8e154d5df8fc3036b87be73d&oe=525E3212)
I threw an innova on my trail boss since it was skinnier and lighter than the meghna, and immediately remembered why I disliked those tires. Even with a rear only, pumped to the absolute max, my bike felt WAY slower through the trails. Switched back to the meghna, ill run that until mainlines are available.
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/Screenshot_2013-10-29-12-53-58-1.png) who's in the market for a holmes!?!
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Just built up my 22 x 22 STA. 22 wheel, 22 toptube. Bloody lovely..
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104429.jpg)
Gratuitous s logo placements
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104450.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104527.jpg)
Got one of those 34ride gyros at the cologne worlds, it's pretty nice..
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104548.jpg)
Had to get a toys r us piranha tyre (!) I.e. a meghna from eBay for the rear, the f22 was just too fat to clear the brakes.. Although now I have it running I might try it again
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104600.jpg)
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so nice
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Just built up my 22 x 22 STA. 22 wheel, 22 toptube. Bloody lovely..
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104429.jpg)
Gratuitous s logo placements
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104450.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104527.jpg)
Got one of those 34ride gyros at the cologne worlds, it's pretty nice..
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104548.jpg)
Had to get a toys r us piranha tyre (!) I.e. a meghna from eBay for the rear, the f22 was just too fat to clear the brakes.. Although now I have it running I might try it again
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104600.jpg)
Looks rad! The rear end on my trail boss was too narrow for the f22, and the 2.1" mainline so I sent it back to have a wider rear end welded on. Ill get pics up when I get it back from standard.
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Just built up my 22 x 22 STA. 22 wheel, 22 toptube. Bloody lovely..
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104429.jpg)
Gratuitous s logo placements
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104450.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104527.jpg)
Got one of those 34ride gyros at the cologne worlds, it's pretty nice..
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104548.jpg)
Had to get a toys r us piranha tyre (!) I.e. a meghna from eBay for the rear, the f22 was just too fat to clear the brakes.. Although now I have it running I might try it again
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104600.jpg)
what bars are those?
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Standard strip 4 piece. 8.5 rise.
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Just built up my 22 x 22 STA. 22 wheel, 22 toptube. Bloody lovely..
.
Gratuitous s logo placements
.
Got one of those 34ride gyros at the cologne worlds, it's pretty nice..
.
Had to get a toys r us piranha tyre (!) I.e. a meghna from eBay for the rear, the f22 was just too fat to clear the brakes.. Although now I have it running I might try it again
.
Killer !!!! I've been daydreaming about getting Standard to do one with the Shaman style head tube gusset. What's the bb height on yours?
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Embarrassingly I have no idea. Just let rick do the usual sta adapted to 22" wheels! Feels fine to me..
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Seen this 22" indust in Austin, pretty coolio!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/10827984456_e718ce0ff7.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/19703119@N03/10827984456/)
22 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/19703119@N03/10827984456/) by killn (http://www.flickr.com/people/19703119@N03/), on Flickr
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Embarrassingly I have no idea. Just let rick do the usual sta adapted to 22" wheels! Feels fine to me..
Standard uses 12.5"bb's on their 22"s.
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Seen this 22" indust in Austin, pretty coolio!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/10827984456_e718ce0ff7.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/19703119@N03/10827984456/)
22 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/19703119@N03/10827984456/) by killn (http://www.flickr.com/people/19703119@N03/), on Flickr
disc brake, interesting
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Embarrassingly I have no idea. Just let rick do the usual sta adapted to 22" wheels! Feels fine to me..
Standard uses 12.5"bb's on their 22"s.
Cheers boss. Let's keep this niche thread up the top for a bit! The 22 handling is spot on for skidding in autumn leaves with my 3 year old daughter..
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(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/8secDart/Sunday%2024in%20Wave%20C/20140506_184911_zpsbyutc0ga.jpg)
from:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4777852#p4777852 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4777852#p4777852)
(http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/8secDart/Sunday%2024in%20Wave%20C/20140506_190328_zpsift6yal9.jpg)
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Be curious as to how that rides. Head angle is going to be a bit steeper, but otherwise probably pretty nice.
:)
G.
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Looks good might build a 22 cruiser! Or a 22 with a front brake and coaster?
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He moved the brake mounts too. Interesting.
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He moved the brake mounts too. Interesting.
The mounts are in the same spot. He said he deepened the dropout and modified the brakes (extended the slot where the pad mounts on the arms).
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ahh my bad i misread
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my amero
(http://photos-a.ak.instagram.com/hphotos-ak-xfa1/10593353_271667056359744_924341620_n.jpg)
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Hell yea dude.
How's it feel?
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good, still not ridden it much cos ive been back in the uk for 6 weeks and took my 20 instead. i wanna take this to some tracks and shit when the weather bucks up cos i reckon itll be proper fun
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Just put a new sprocket on the 22 before work today.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/308h9qd.jpg)
Next will be building up a Profile/Nankai hub for the rear wheel.
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I've been really thing about one of these lately. I've been riding my BMX less and less, riding bigger instead. I tried to go for a ride yesterday and the BMX just felt so cramped and tiny. I'm not ready to make the plunge though, I like to a lot of lip tricks and front brake stuff and I just feel like its going to be too much bike for that. I'm also 6'1" and 27 years old, the body doesn't bend like it used and 20" wheels just don't feel comfortable.
Anyone have any videos of someone riding one? I'd like to see how it looks in motion and what body position is like.
I did ride a 24" model C once, it felt pretty nice.
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i still prefer a 20 to a 22 and im also 27 and 6'6. 22 is fun for jumping, a super high front end has done wonders for my back and posture though, id look into trying to raise the bars. maybe its the short back end on the 20 but it just feels nippier and more responsive. guess it depends on personal preference though, short back ends on frames are great i reckon
youd need to go custom to get front brakes on a 22 though and itd start to get expensive
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Wheel size doesn't make a bike bigger.
Many of the 22 inch frames are short.
But get a 22.25 ATF and ride the shit out of it.
Pretty sure S&M make 22 inch forks with mounts.
And a big ol' LOL at you kids in your 20's. (and 30's)
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I'm 30 and 5-11 tall.
My 20 is a Mutiny Animist with a 21.5 top tube
I have a 22 Holmes (pictured on previous page)
I also have a ModelC, WaveC, and WaveC Prototype that I love.
The Holmes (22 top tube) feels like it has the most room up front, and has the shortest back end of the bigger bikes. It's actually really close to the Animist in terms of rear end length. The lower bottom bracket makes it feel real stable. The Holmes also feels much closer to a 20 inch bike. Out of everything, the Prototype WaveC is probably getting ridden the most lately. I just really love the 24's for some reason.
S&M makes 22 pitchforks with 990 mounts, so fronties are still doable on a 22.
If you're going to do a bunch of front brake tricks, I'd go with a 22 over a 24. I feel like fronties on a 24 feels a little weird. Bobby (skateparkrider) let me ride his WaveC with fronts when I was in Austin for ACL last year, and trying to use the fronts felt a little weird to me.
I'll throw this out there too, if anyone is ever in the Raleigh NC area and wants to try out some different bikes, hit me up.
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youd need to go custom to get front brakes on a 22 though and itd start to get expensive
I don't think there is a single part on my current BMX that isn't custom. I work in a machine shop and used to intern at solid, so putting mounts on a set of forks is trivial.
I'm really torn. My current BMX just feels so cramped and awful. I rode a model C and it felt really comfortable, but sluggish. I'm not ready to jump on the 22 bandwagon yet, but its tempting. If anyone in norcal has one I would love to take it for a spin.
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yeah i forgot about the time you put cantis on your directors then polished the welds off and they cracked
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Anyone have any videos of someone riding one? I'd like to see how it looks in motion and what body position is like.
Chris Mahoney on the new 22" Faction Amero BMX 2013
http://vimeo.com/58917580
(http://vimeo.com/58917580)
There are a lot of pics and some videos posted in the 22"BMX Facebook group as well.
https://www.facebook.com/22inchbmx?fref=nf
(https://www.facebook.com/22inchbmx?fref=nf)
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I've been really thing about one of these lately. I've been riding my BMX less and less, riding bigger instead. I tried to go for a ride yesterday and the BMX just felt so cramped and tiny. I'm not ready to make the plunge though, I like to a lot of lip tricks and front brake stuff and I just feel like its going to be too much bike for that. I'm also 6'1" and 27 years old, the body doesn't bend like it used and 20" wheels just don't feel comfortable.
Anyone have any videos of someone riding one? I'd like to see how it looks in motion and what body position is like.
I did ride a 24" model C once, it felt pretty nice.
I'm 6'4 220, and rode a 20" bike since I was 13. The last 20" bike I rode was a custom 250L with a 22" top tube and 9.75" bars. Even that bike felt too cramped and when I saw pictures and video of myself riding it I looked absolutely ridiculous. I decided to give 22's a go and pre ordered the faction amero as soon as it was available. I immediately felt that 22" wheels were superior to 20's but the 21.5"tt was waaay too short and I destroyed 2 pairs of their terrible forks, so I made the switch to a custom 23"tt holmes and it was the best decision I ever made. Im currently on a 23"tt 22"wheeled custom trail boss and ill never touch a 20" bike again. My trail boss is scaled up 2" in every aspect from what my 20" bike was and it feels perfect for my size. I only ride dirt, so I cant speak for how it handles nib jibbin curbs and ledges but I can still hop the sucker on picnic tables, so the vertical does not suffer. Best bike ive ever ridden
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I'm 6'4 220, and rode a 20" bike since I was 13. The last 20" bike I rode was a custom 250L with a 22" top tube and 9.75" bars. Even that bike felt too cramped and when I saw pictures and video of myself riding it I looked absolutely ridiculous. I decided to give 22's a go and pre ordered the faction amero as soon as it was available. I immediately felt that 22" wheels were superior to 20's but the 21.5"tt was waaay too short and I destroyed 2 pairs of their terrible forks, so I made the switch to a custom 23"tt holmes and it was the best decision I ever made. Im currently on a 23"tt 22"wheeled custom trail boss and ill never touch a 20" bike again. My trail boss is scaled up 2" in every aspect from what my 20" bike was and it feels perfect for my size. I only ride dirt, so I cant speak for how it handles nib jibbin curbs and ledges but I can still hop the sucker on picnic tables, so the vertical does not suffer. Best bike ive ever ridden
badass! i think i saw it on bmxmuseum, but do you have more pics?
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I'm 6'4 220, and rode a 20" bike since I was 13. The last 20" bike I rode was a custom 250L with a 22" top tube and 9.75" bars. Even that bike felt too cramped and when I saw pictures and video of myself riding it I looked absolutely ridiculous. I decided to give 22's a go and pre ordered the faction amero as soon as it was available. I immediately felt that 22" wheels were superior to 20's but the 21.5"tt was waaay too short and I destroyed 2 pairs of their terrible forks, so I made the switch to a custom 23"tt holmes and it was the best decision I ever made. Im currently on a 23"tt 22"wheeled custom trail boss and ill never touch a 20" bike again. My trail boss is scaled up 2" in every aspect from what my 20" bike was and it feels perfect for my size. I only ride dirt, so I cant speak for how it handles nib jibbin curbs and ledges but I can still hop the sucker on picnic tables, so the vertical does not suffer. Best bike ive ever ridden
badass! i think i saw it on bmxmuseum, but do you have more pics?
theres a picture of the trail boss on page 37 in here, heres my atf (http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/Mobile%20Uploads/20140509_150755.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/Jesushasamyspace/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140509_150755.jpg.html) As for video, checkout Killshit4 on vimeo, all of my clips are either on my trail boss or holmes
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damn and i thought big bens bike was ugly
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its ok guys im working on my bg acceptance barcode trails snob build as i speak
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^ I'd rather see your trails than your bike.
There aren't snobs in my woods.
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there are on bg though
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Brett Parker, InDust 22", made in TX
(http://industbikes.com/images/banner4.jpg)
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Another oldie debating the switch to 22" because a 20" now feels too twitchy to be comfortable with. Mainly ride MTB now which is part of it. Have a 26" jump bike, tried 24s, neither quite feel right.
Convince how great and how happy you are with them.
Trails/flow rider, some street jibs, looking for something that takes that edge off the bmx twitchiness death feel so i can enjoy BMX time.
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Yes! Buy a 22.
So many rad frame options out now.
Do it.
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Another oldie debating the switch to 22" because a 20" now feels too twitchy to be comfortable with. Mainly ride MTB now which is part of it. Have a 26" jump bike, tried 24s, neither quite feel right.
Convince how great and how happy you are with them.
Trails/flow rider, some street jibs, looking for something that takes that edge off the bmx twitchiness death feel so i can enjoy BMX time.
Bret Parker, Lubbock trails
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Bret_360_table_2014_zps16c11c6c.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/rideindust (https://www.facebook.com/rideindust)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Pepper_table_still_FB.jpg)
disc brake option ;)
(http://p.vitalbmx.com/photos/forums/2014/05/22/31995/s1200_Indust_Spacetime_disc_brake_Pepper_Goertz.jpg)
The S&M ATF 22" kit also looks great....
http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976 (http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976)
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The S&M ATF 22" kit also looks great....
http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976 (http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976)
Kit? That article doesn't have a working URL.
But I found the frame? http://www.sandmbikes.com/product/frames/atf-frame-for-22-wheel/
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do it dean, i reckon itll be right up your street. a bit bigger than a regular bmx but not so much that it feels cumbersome and awkward
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The S&M ATF 22" kit also looks great....
http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976 (http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976)
Kit? That article doesn't have a working URL.
But I found the frame? http://www.sandmbikes.com/product/frames/atf-frame-for-22-wheel/
and if you check eBay, they have "kits" direct from S&M or their distributor with frame, fork, wheels, tubes, and tires ....
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The S&M ATF 22" kit also looks great....
http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976 (http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976)
Kit? That article doesn't have a working URL.
But I found the frame? http://www.sandmbikes.com/product/frames/atf-frame-for-22-wheel/
and if you check eBay, they have "kits" direct from S&M or their distributor with frame, fork, wheels, tubes, and tires ....
Can you link one? because I can't find it and I have a tax return coming up.
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The S&M ATF 22" kit also looks great....
http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976 (http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/24-Inch-Shredding,29/S-amp-M-22-ATF,1283976)
Kit? That article doesn't have a working URL.
But I found the frame? http://www.sandmbikes.com/product/frames/atf-frame-for-22-wheel/
and if you check eBay, they have "kits" direct from S&M or their distributor with frame, fork, wheels, tubes, and tires ....
Can you link one? because I can't find it and I have a tax return coming up.
; )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-22-INCH-ATF-FRAME-21-625-TRANS-GREEN-22-KIT-WHEELS-FORKS-BMX-BIKE-FACTION-/221605447814?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3398b6c886 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-22-INCH-ATF-FRAME-21-625-TRANS-GREEN-22-KIT-WHEELS-FORKS-BMX-BIKE-FACTION-/221605447814?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3398b6c886)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-22-INCH-ATF-FRAME-22-125-FLAT-BLACK-22-KIT-CHROME-FORKS-BMX-BIKE-FACTION-/221605447829?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3398b6c895 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-22-INCH-ATF-FRAME-22-125-FLAT-BLACK-22-KIT-CHROME-FORKS-BMX-BIKE-FACTION-/221605447829?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3398b6c895)
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I just ordered one up from Standard, cant wait!!
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I'm really thinking about biting the bullet on one of those ATFs. I'm 6ft tall and I ride a 21.125" TT right now, which size TT should I go with, and what size bars do people usually run on these?
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Most of the builds on bmxmuseuem have hoders,9 seems decent
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I'm 5foot 11 inches and my twenty inch bike has a 21.5 Top Tube.
I had an S&M Holmes (still do, just not built) that's a 22 TT, and now I have an Indust with a 21,5/8ths TT.
The Homes felt just a little bit too long for me. I think it has to do with it having a lower bottom bracket too, but 22 was just a little bit too much on this bike.
The Indust feels pretty much perfect since it's got a slightly higher bottom bracket along with the shorter TT.
I've had a top load stem and 8.5 bars on both bikes and it feels pretty perfect.
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I'm really thinking about biting the bullet on one of those ATFs. I'm 6ft tall and I ride a 21.125" TT right now, which size TT should I go with, and what size bars do people usually run on these?
I'm 6'1". I run 9"s, but a lot of people run 8"s and 8.25"s. If you like your current 20" and you're not trying to make a really "big" feeling bike, but rather just a proportionally sized 22" then I would say you should probably do the 21.6"tt ATF instead of the 22.125" one. My InDust is a 21.7"tt and I like it. (I have also tried a 21"tt 22"-wheel Stout, which works, too.... so it's really just personal pref).
8"s on my Indust 24" and 9"s on my Indust 22":
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/InDust_2ton_and_Cuatrov2006.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/InDust_2ton_and_Cuatrov2001.jpg)
Here's an ATF22 with big bars:
22"s Go Here
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5093369#p5093369 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5093369#p5093369)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/95dxhatch/Mobile%20Uploads/20150117_121828_zpswdkipfgu.jpg)
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I ordered my frame with a 21.25" TT and 8.5" rise bars. Normally I'd ride a 20.75 frame.
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I ordered my frame with a 21.25" TT and 8.5" rise bars. Normally I'd ride a 20.75 frame.
Hopefully, STANDARD is factoring in tire clearance for S&M Mainline 22" and Faction F22" tires. I remember someone in one of the bmxmuseum threads saying their early Standard custom 22" didn't have enough tire clearance for the F22 [EDIT: found link, pasted below]. The S&M Mainline 22" tire comes in two widths.
Comparison shot with my old Taj with ACS 20X2.00 flatland tires (I didn't ride those on the Taj, they just happened to be on the wheelset) ... and my Stout 22" with the Faction F22 tires. The F22"s are actually about 22.4" in diameter when inflated. There is very minimal brake arm clearance when the wheel is in the slammed position, but there is good tire clearance with the frame.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/STOUT22-and-96HoffmanTaj004_zpsc52632d4.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513402#p4513402 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513402#p4513402)
Jobsy's 22"wheel 22"top tube Standard STA
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104600.jpg)
Trail Boss clearance with S&M Mainlines:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/Screenshot_2013-11-12-09-16-49-1.png)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513972#p4513972 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513972#p4513972)
"Here's a shot of the 2.1 mainline just barely clearing with the axle centered in the dropouts. I sent the tboss back to standard yesterday with a wheel and F22 so that they can put a wider rear end on. All of their 22"s from here on out should have zero problems with clearance."
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I ordered my frame with a 21.25" TT and 8.5" rise bars. Normally I'd ride a 20.75 frame.
Hopefully, STANDARD is factoring in tire clearance for S&M Mainline 22" and Faction F22" tires. I remember someone in one of the bmxmuseum threads saying their early Standard custom 22" didn't have enough tire clearance for the F22 [EDIT: found link, pasted below]. The S&M Mainline 22" tire comes in two widths.
Comparison shot with my old Taj with ACS 20X2.00 flatland tires (I didn't ride those on the Taj, they just happened to be on the wheelset) ... and my Stout 22" with the Faction F22 tires. The F22"s are actually about 22.4" in diameter when inflated. There is very minimal brake arm clearance when the wheel is in the slammed position, but there is good tire clearance with the frame.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/STOUT22-and-96HoffmanTaj004_zpsc52632d4.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513402#p4513402 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513402#p4513402)
Jobsy's 22"wheel 22"top tube Standard STA
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/christhejob/Sta%2022/20131109_104600.jpg)
Trail Boss clearance with S&M Mainlines:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy145/Jesushasamyspace/Screenshot_2013-11-12-09-16-49-1.png)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513972#p4513972 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=4513972#p4513972)
"Here's a shot of the 2.1 mainline just barely clearing with the axle centered in the dropouts. I sent the tboss back to standard yesterday with a wheel and F22 so that they can put a wider rear end on. All of their 22"s from here on out should have zero problems with clearance."
That was an old pic of my trailboss, the new rear end they welded on had plenty of clearance and Rick said they would be that wide from then on out.
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just finished my new build...
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/mikepickerd/IMG_0318.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/mikepickerd/media/IMG_0318.jpg.html)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/mikepickerd/IMG_0320.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/mikepickerd/media/IMG_0320.jpg.html)
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Wooooowwww
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Wooooowwww
Thanks dude, it's been a while since I've built a BMX bike and posted to the board!
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holy shit best 22 ive seen.
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Wooooowwww
Thanks dude, it's been a while since I've built a BMX bike and posted to the board!
What's the geo on it? If you're ever near Raleigh NC hit me up and we can trade rides on each others 22's.
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Want.
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Wooooowwww
Thanks dude, it's been a while since I've built a BMX bike and posted to the board!
What's the geo on it? If you're ever near Raleigh NC hit me up and we can trade rides on each others 22's.
Here is the geo directly from Rick:
Top tube lengths available are 21, 21.25, 21.5, 22 and 22.5. Chain stay length 14 slammed. Head tube 74.5, Seat tube angle 71, BB height 12.5, Stand over 8.5.
And if I'm ever in the area I'll most definitely hit you up. Do the same if you find yourself near Dayton, OH
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Wooooowwww
Thanks dude, it's been a while since I've built a BMX bike and posted to the board!
What's the geo on it? If you're ever near Raleigh NC hit me up and we can trade rides on each others 22's.
Here is the geo directly from Rick:
Top tube lengths available are 21, 21.25, 21.5, 22 and 22.5. Chain stay length 14 slammed. Head tube 74.5, Seat tube angle 71, BB height 12.5, Stand over 8.5.
And if I'm ever in the area I'll most definitely hit you up. Do the same if you find yourself near Dayton, OH
i will ride yer damn bike and molest yer dog!!!
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"i will ride yer damn bike and molest yer dog!!!"
Let's get the facts straight:
1: You will indeed ride my bike.
2: My dog will molest you.
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"i will ride yer damn bike and molest yer dog!!!"
Let's get the facts straight:
1: You will indeed ride my bike.
2: My dog will molest you.
well just my arm, but yea
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my holmes...only upgrade since the pic is a keyguard.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m491/aaasilva23/BMX/20140814_132644_zps8ppb4t9x.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/aaasilva23/media/BMX/20140814_132644_zps8ppb4t9x.jpg.html)
in the process of buildn this atf.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m491/aaasilva23/BMX/20140812_123441_zpsdg0bb23j.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/aaasilva23/media/BMX/20140812_123441_zpsdg0bb23j.jpg.html)
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some updates... 8)
old school flair, new school geo....
(http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/21497/img_02775693eba411.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5437541#p5437541 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5437541#p5437541)
fab'd by Big Dave @ Pedal Driven Cycles http://pedaldrivencycles.com/ (http://pedaldrivencycles.com/)
(http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/108873/p11602215649ea2db0.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5389749#p5389749 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5389749#p5389749)
S&M Mainline 22 X 2.4" tire:
(http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/dpercival1971/JFR/6BE6E4A7-B3D8-4D8F-A537-7F155DDEEF45_zpsoh0ovsqf.png)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5288139#p5288139 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5288139#p5288139)
Standard Trail Beast
(http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q733/Shawn_Shimkets/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150724_184406_zps5fovim21.jpg)
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5282556#p5282556 (http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5282556#p5282556)
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hey!!! the second bike down- on the previous post (built by Big Dave at Pedal Driven Cycles) is mine, and I have the frame for sale right now. It's dark olive green...amazing custom frame. I ride trails on a 20", and race a 24". I though maybe the 22 would be my one and only- allowing me to concentrate on just one size bike. In the end, I'd rather just keep my 20" and my 24". If anyone is interested, I have the frame listed on bmx museum right now. http://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/196367
I'm new to BikeGuide, but have been on the museum for 4-5 years...need to get some time on here before I start posting things up for sale.
If you're interested- email me at onefooteleven-at-yahoo dot com.
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I haven't read through the thread to see if anyones mentioned it, but I heard United were bringing out a 22" complete for the 2017 model year.
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interesting, ive not heard as much buzz around 22s recently but then i only really heard it before in this thread on this forum so ehhh maybe theyre catching on more. havent ridden mine in ages hah
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interesting, ive not heard as much buzz around 22s recently but then i only really heard it before in this thread on this forum so ehhh maybe theyre catching on more. havent ridden mine in ages hah
There's a lot of buzz via the 22" BMX page on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/22inchbmx (https://www.facebook.com/22inchbmx)
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yeah i follow that page.
i saw something this morning that theres gonna be a brian foster signature fit 22 complete coming out next year. even though hes not riding one atm cos he still likes his 20, he said that he felt itd get him a few more years of riding having the option of a 22.
i dont see myself switching from my 20 for normal riding cos im too nibbly, it feels real stable when jumping boxes and stuff on it, makes ramps feel way less intimidating. i mostly use it for going on bike rides with my gf tho haha so i can do hops and stuff while riding around
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If a BF 22 comes out I'll have to jump on the bandwagon
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Was going to hold out for a BF22 but...
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/chillywilly263/Bike/FBM/IMG_3689_zpsfhxk9jar.jpg)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/chillywilly263/Bike/FBM/IMG_3690_zps8ja23evn.jpg)
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Pics of it build up or it doesn't count...
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Need to clear up some funds for wheels. I've got most everything else I need to build it.
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I can't wait!
I bet that thing is going to look badass.
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Waiting til the United and Fit completes come out then I might go for one. Wish we were more like the mtb market and different wheel sizes and weird setups were more available.
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Waiting til the United and Fit completes come out then I might go for one. Wish we were more like the mtb market and different wheel sizes and weird setups were more available.
just do it. the Revenge wheeslset and Mainline 22" tires are very solid.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-BIKES-ATF-FRAME-TRANS-RED-22-INCH-TT-22-BMX-BIKE-20-LONG-MACNEIL-DEUCE-/272008296319?hash=item3f54f5377f:g:kpYAAOSwFnFWFEyD (http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-BIKES-ATF-FRAME-TRANS-RED-22-INCH-TT-22-BMX-BIKE-20-LONG-MACNEIL-DEUCE-/272008296319?hash=item3f54f5377f:g:kpYAAOSwFnFWFEyD)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-Pitchfork-Tapered-XLT-Black-Chrome-22-BMX-Bike-Fork-ATF-Holmes-Faction-/111940388642?hash=item1a102ac722:g:QgcAAOSwv0tU52S0 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-Pitchfork-Tapered-XLT-Black-Chrome-22-BMX-Bike-Fork-ATF-Holmes-Faction-/111940388642?hash=item1a102ac722:g:QgcAAOSwv0tU52S0)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-Mainline-22-x-2-1-Dirt-Jump-Trail-Tire-BMX-BIKE-ATF-BTM-Holmes-Faction-F22-/172175604171?hash=item28167739cb:g:XaMAAOSwrmdTpc5x (http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-Mainline-22-x-2-1-Dirt-Jump-Trail-Tire-BMX-BIKE-ATF-BTM-Holmes-Faction-F22-/172175604171?hash=item28167739cb:g:XaMAAOSwrmdTpc5x)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVENGE-22-in-BMX-Bike-Wheel-Set-Black-Polished-Hubs-S-M-BMX-BIKE-/222135119436?hash=item33b848ee4c:g:BVAAAOSwHnFV5mqk (http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVENGE-22-in-BMX-Bike-Wheel-Set-Black-Polished-Hubs-S-M-BMX-BIKE-/222135119436?hash=item33b848ee4c:g:BVAAAOSwHnFV5mqk)
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Forte 22" is out, looks great. Going to try and have a go on one somewhere and seriously consider it.
http://canyoudigitbmx.com/interview-kye-forte-on-22-bikes-and-his-new-signature-united-kf22-complete/
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A year later... Bought a KF22, it feels great, going to stock up on tyres in case the whole 22 thing grinds to a halt. Go and buy one!
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Pics yo
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Love/hate relationship with this thing. Ordered one of the first 3 frames, only to find out they welded the brake mounts in the wrong spot. Got a replacement frame a week short of 4 months later. Got everything together and had a severely misshapen rear tire. Got a replacement tire, can't slam the wheel in the dropout with a 2.1" tire without it hitting the chainstay brace or chainstays themselves. It does look and ride nice though. Most recent pic from last winter after I got it put together. Have since had my rims re laced to Madera hubs, changed the sprocket to an Odyssey C-512 27t, and swapped out the pedals for some Odyssey PC. It's been hanging in the garage since the end of April as I'm kinda burnt out on the whole thing.
(http://uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/3072/img_53515850c94214.jpg)
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I got an ATF a while ago and I love it. Most bike have the grace period where they feel weird and you have to get used to it, but this thing just felt perfect from the get go. 20" bikes feel unridable now.
(http://i.imgur.com/wfcxET4.jpg?1)
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Not sure if it counts but, I bought a model C and rode it for the first time yesterday. Probably never ride my 20" again.
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Model C's and other new school geometry cruisers are the shit!
I've got a Model C, Model C3, Liquid 24, Fit CR24, and a custom Stout 24. I'm addicted to cruisers now and am working on getting a prototype frame built in China right now for potentially doing a small production run.
Maybe we should start a separate cruiser thread?
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I'd like to try a franke and fork built around 18" but with adult geometry. I rode an 18" a bit on a backyard mini and I could do much cleaner 540s than on my 20 but it was too small for front end stuff like barspins or tabes and it looped out way too easily
Actually, 19" would be nice to try but it's too small an increment to expect anything to be made for it, i.e. rims and tires
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You could always try sticking 18 inch wheels on a 20 inch frame as long as you don't ride brakes.
This kinda makes me want to put 20 inch wheels on one of my cruisers just to see what it feels like... Or even 12 inch wheels just to go to the extreme end with it.
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You could always try sticking 18 inch wheels on a 20 inch frame as long as you don't ride brakes.
This kinda makes me want to put 20 inch wheels on one of my cruisers just to see what it feels like... Or even 12 inch wheels just to go to the extreme end with it.
Pedal strikes would be a nightmare.
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(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/05a9e138abfb05e8333766d6224c1d5b/5B35ADC4/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/21479765_170417916865824_5034293117973430272_n.jpg)
I built this thing a while ago. Should be good on the jumps in Summer. Basically feels like a 20" but a bit less responsive and a lot more comfortable. The new ATF frames clear 2.4 tires with the Springfield brake for ultimate monster trucking.
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You could always try sticking 18 inch wheels on a 20 inch frame as long as you don't ride brakes.
This kinda makes me want to put 20 inch wheels on one of my cruisers just to see what it feels like... Or even 12 inch wheels just to go to the extreme end with it.
Pedal strikes would be a nightmare.
That's one issue, you're pedals are an inch closer to the ground. Shorter cranks would help somewhat, going from 175 to 165 or 160 is a difference or 10 or 15mm, two fifths and three fifths on that inch at the cost of some leverage. Speaking of that part of the bike being closer to the ground, the effectual 10.5 to 10.75 BB height might feel shit too
I like having the option of brakes but to try out an adult BMX built around smaller wheels it's not a deal breaker. I knew a guy decades ago who had 16" on a 20" and rode it on dirt too but it felt so wrong to me the one time I rode it
Fun food for thought but at the end of the day I can't really expect to be able to hug every cat
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(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/05a9e138abfb05e8333766d6224c1d5b/5B35ADC4/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/21479765_170417916865824_5034293117973430272_n.jpg)
I built this thing a while ago. Should be good on the jumps in Summer. Basically feels like a 20" but a bit less responsive and a lot more comfortable. The new ATF frames clear 2.4 tires with the Springfield brake for ultimate monster trucking.
Fuhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Tom that's gorgeous. Cool to see you on a 22.
How do you feel about the Springfields? I've seen a lot of people complaining about them online, but I've got a couple sets of them on different bikes and I really like them. The pads are just OK so I've switched them out on my favorite bikes, but overall I feel like they're stiff as hell.
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Pedal strikes would be a nightmare.
That's one issue, you're pedals are an inch closer to the ground. Shorter cranks would help somewhat, going from 175 to 165 or 160 is a difference or 10 or 15mm, two fifths and three fifths on that inch at the cost of some leverage. Speaking of that part of the bike being closer to the ground, the effectual 10.5 to 10.75 BB height might feel shit too
I like having the option of brakes but to try out an adult BMX built around smaller wheels it's not a deal breaker. I knew a guy decades ago who had 16" on a 20" and rode it on dirt too but it felt so wrong to me the one time I rode it
Fun food for thought but at the end of the day I can't really expect to be able to hug every cat
Putting 20 inch wheesl on a 24 wouldn't cause problems with pedal strike, but going down to 12 inch wheels definitely would.
The feel of the bottom bracket wouldn't really change since the pivot points don't change, but the feeling of how close you are to the ground would.
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(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/05a9e138abfb05e8333766d6224c1d5b/5B35ADC4/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/21479765_170417916865824_5034293117973430272_n.jpg)
I built this thing a while ago. Should be good on the jumps in Summer. Basically feels like a 20" but a bit less responsive and a lot more comfortable. The new ATF frames clear 2.4 tires with the Springfield brake for ultimate monster trucking.
Fuhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Tom that's gorgeous. Cool to see you on a 22.
How do you feel about the Springfields? I've seen a lot of people complaining about them online, but I've got a couple sets of them on different bikes and I really like them. The pads are just OK so I've switched them out on my favorite bikes, but overall I feel like they're stiff as hell.
The Springfields work really well. I actually got rid of my 1,000 year old Fly brake on the Barcode for one. I can see how they wouldn't work for everyone but for how much I ride BMX these days they're sound.