Bikeguide.org - Bike maintenance for BMX'ers
The Street => The Bike Shop => Topic started by: red_spectre on January 27, 2015, 10:21:42 AM
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In the past I have read that forks that are threaded for 25x1.5mm compression bolts (correct me if I am wrong) are more likely to fail.
Sam from Tree, for instance, writes on their website (when describing their Okan forks): "I have found that forks with a 25mm compression bolt have a higher risk of snapping off the headtube."
Why is this the case? Is this based purely on anecdotal evidence? Can 1mm really have such a difference (24x1.5mm vs 25x1.5mm) and if this is the case why not use 10x1.25mm (like S&M/FIT) or 18x1.5mm (Cult) etc...?
When I browse forks online, it seems that the majority of brands are manufacturing forks for 25x1.5mm (a quick browse on Dan's for instance, will confirm this).
If they are inferior why is this still the case?
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S&M uses a welded pc similar to a starnut and I think same goes for cult. They don't thread their steerers
Whatever odyssey does (24?) is probably the best
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It''s because 25 doesn't leave enough wall thickness
It's still used purely out of ignorance/apathy
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1mm less wall thickness is a fair bit when it's on a steerer.
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But then, I wonder, if there is such a huge difference between 25 and 24mm compression caps and wall thickness, is a welded star nut (like S&M, Fit, Cult) not superior? Would, for instance, an Odyssey fork (which I run) not be better if it didn't have any threading? Or is there more to it?
Also, you would think that if 25x1.5mm forks were failing constantly, switching to 24mm would be an easy fix. Yet, I see companies like Shadow (who has had forks that evidently failed miserably) opting to develop oversized fork crowns (38mm) and what not... Could these brands really be that ignorant?
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
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Just a guess, but I would imagine Odyssey and their designers have decided against welding a nut in the steerer as to not add more heat/stress to the area when applying said nut.
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
Bonedeth, Mutiny, Shadow and Subrosa do all use 25mm...
But so do Colony, Deco, Demolition, FBM, Fly, Kink, Macneil, Premium, Snafu, Stolen, Total, Volume, Verde... (as far as I can tell).
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Just a guess, but I would imagine Odyssey and their designers have decided against welding a nut in the steerer as to not add more heat/stress to the area when applying said nut.
If I remember correctly, Odyssey and Sunday forks used to use M18 bolts and switched more recently to M24. I am curious if this was a result of issues from welding in the steerer (heat/stress, like you say) or if this was a cost saving technique (I imagine welding is more costly than threading?).
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
Bonedeth, Mutiny, Shadow and Subrosa do all use 25mm...
But so do Colony, Deco, Demolition, Fly, Kink, Macneil, Premium, Snafu, Stolen, Total, Verde... (as far as I can tell).
statistics will be taken into account as soon as someone actually runs something from one of those brands
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Just a guess, but I would imagine Odyssey and their designers have decided against welding a nut in the steerer as to not add more heat/stress to the area when applying said nut.
If I remember correctly, Odyssey and Sunday forks used to use M18 bolts and switched more recently to M24. I am curious if this was a result of issues from welding in the steerer (heat/stress, like you say) or if this was a cost saving technique (I imagine welding is more costly than threading?).
I bet it is a good bit cheaper to not weld a nut in place. Also lighter if you just thread the steerer tube.
I think they have used threaded steerers since the classic race/dirt forks came out, but I could be mistaken.
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I'd wager that 25 is so prevalent due to so many forks being a quick tweak of something out of a catalogue
I think they have used threaded steerers since the classic race/dirt forks came out, but I could be mistaken.
They switched away from H18 (I think it was) for the 07 forks
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
Bonedeth, Mutiny, Shadow and Subrosa do all use 25mm...
But so do Colony, Deco, Demolition, Fly, Kink, Macneil, Premium, Snafu, Stolen, Total, Verde... (as far as I can tell).
statistics will be taken into account as soon as someone actually runs something from one of those brands
There are definitely people running forks from Colony, Demolition, FBM, Fly, Kink, and Volume (among the others that I listed which I personally would not touch with a ten foot pole) and all are 25mm.
FBM, for instance, would not be using a catalogue part - so why use 25mm? Seems strange.
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More likely, I can see that. But do forks really fail here? I cannot recall seeing a fork failing here.
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i kinda purposely took FBM out of the list hoping noone would mention it lol
maybe they just dont have a tap that size laying around the shop?
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1mm is far enough to add the strenght it needs. One millimeter seems nothing to us but it's actually adding 1/3.5 of wall thickness.
Thats nearly one third of wall thickness.
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I've seen them snap for dudes that run their stems super high (I guess most people do these days). I tend to run my stem as low as possible, so I think the threads end inside my stem on most forks. If the stem is higher than the threads they have more leverage over that cut out bit.
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More likely, I can see that. But do forks really fail here? I cannot recall seeing a fork failing here.
Yeah they do. Nothing like your stem coming off for no reason
They also ovalise way too easy too
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I'm responsible for the 24mm thread.
When I first came to work with Odyssey and we started on forks, I wanted a big enough top bolt to run a front brake cable with the housing and be able to withdraw it without messing with the brake too much. But I also wanted to remove the heat and stress concentration of a welded insert. So that led me to looking at threading the steerer directly and using a big hollow aluminium bolt.
M25 was the nearest off the shelf size, but in a 28.6mm steerer that left a wall thickness of just 1.8mm and WITH the added stress raisers of all the thread tips. So instead I drew up the steerer as a multi-butted tube with a "thick bit" where the bolt goes and to use a 24mm (non standard) thread. This leaves 2.3mm wall thickness whilst keeping the weight reasonable.
I also added a longer "fat" section at another critical area just above the bottom headset seat where there is a lot of stress.
Our competitors obviously looked at these forks and took them to Cyclogic and CWI and said something along the lines of "copy this". But butting the steerer is expensive and difficult, commissioning a 24mm custom tap is more money and more work than just picking up a 25mm off the shelf and so they came up with the brilliant plan of just using a plain bore and shoving the tap in... OK so its massively weaker but it "looks" the same and who REALLY gives a shit right?!?
So now, our forks are one of the more expensive options, but mysteriously everyone else's lifetime warranties have had to be scaled back and have lots of caveats attached... wonder why that might be...
We aim to make the best, strongest, safest forks we can. We work damn hard at it and go to the added expense of having an actual engineer (me) design them, doing proper testing and not cutting corners. Because snapping forks isnt just "annoying" and might leave you with a warranty claim that doesn't get honored... its fucking horrible.
:)
G.
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Yeah I see so many videos online where forks are snapping and it doesn't seem to be the lower headset cup where they used to break it's always the fork breaking at the top and the stem part coming off. I wouldn't want to imagine this happening at the bottom of a big stairset or something.
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I'm guessing that FBM buys their steerer tubes pre-threaded from their tubing supplier...
And G: thank you for putting the work that you do into your parts.
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
Bonedeth, Mutiny, Shadow and Subrosa do all use 25mm...
But so do Colony, Deco, Demolition, Fly, Kink, Macneil, Premium, Snafu, Stolen, Total, Verde... (as far as I can tell).
statistics will be taken into account as soon as someone actually runs something from one of those brands
What kind of dirty Canadian are you, not running Macneil parts. For shame...
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haha i think the best ive done is pick up an Alliance shirt back in the day. might be the only decent product we ever put out up north of the border.
the OG ruben stem was dece' tho!
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I'm responsible for the 24mm thread.
When I first came to work with Odyssey and we started on forks, I wanted a big enough top bolt to run a front brake cable with the housing and be able to withdraw it without messing with the brake too much. But I also wanted to remove the heat and stress concentration of a welded insert. So that led me to looking at threading the steerer directly and using a big hollow aluminium bolt.
M25 was the nearest off the shelf size, but in a 28.6mm steerer that left a wall thickness of just 1.8mm and WITH the added stress raisers of all the thread tips. So instead I drew up the steerer as a multi-butted tube with a "thick bit" where the bolt goes and to use a 24mm (non standard) thread. This leaves 2.3mm wall thickness whilst keeping the weight reasonable.
I also added a longer "fat" section at another critical area just above the bottom headset seat where there is a lot of stress.
Our competitors obviously looked at these forks and took them to Cyclogic and CWI and said something along the lines of "copy this". But butting the steerer is expensive and difficult, commissioning a 24mm custom tap is more money and more work than just picking up a 25mm off the shelf and so they came up with the brilliant plan of just using a plain bore and shoving the tap in... OK so its massively weaker but it "looks" the same and who REALLY gives a shit right?!?
So now, our forks are one of the more expensive options, but mysteriously everyone else's lifetime warranties have had to be scaled back and have lots of caveats attached... wonder why that might be...
We aim to make the best, strongest, safest forks we can. We work damn hard at it and go to the added expense of having an actual engineer (me) design them, doing proper testing and not cutting corners. Because snapping forks isnt just "annoying" and might leave you with a warranty claim that doesn't get honored... its fucking horrible.
:)
G.
Thanks!
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haha i think the best ive done is pick up an Alliance shirt back in the day. might be the only decent product we ever put out up north of the border.
the OG ruben stem was dece' tho!
Word. I still have my old Alliance shirts. I wanted a PSI pretty bad as a little grom. You werent the dude walking around the Toronto Bike show last year in a brand new Alliance shirt, were you?
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
Bonedeth, Mutiny, Shadow and Subrosa do all use 25mm...
But so do Colony, Deco, Demolition, Fly, Kink, Macneil, Premium, Snafu, Stolen, Total, Verde... (as far as I can tell).
statistics will be taken into account as soon as someone actually runs something from one of those brands
What kind of dirty Canadian are you, not running Macneil parts. For shame...
TBH, as a Canadian, I don't see anyone running Macneil products anymore (outside of those few who are sponsored/flowed product). I'm not sure how you go from the Ruben kit, guard sprocket, pivotal etc... to what they offer now. But, I guess that's a topic for another thread...
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haha yes, sparky's literally keeps 25mm alive
Bonedeth, Mutiny, Shadow and Subrosa do all use 25mm...
But so do Colony, Deco, Demolition, Fly, Kink, Macneil, Premium, Snafu, Stolen, Total, Verde... (as far as I can tell).
statistics will be taken into account as soon as someone actually runs something from one of those brands
Green box. We are on the same page
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this video work? I don't know how to embed this stuff.
http://instagram.com/p/wz6FaUA_zk/?modal=true
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this video work? I don't know how to embed this stuff.
http://instagram.com/p/wz6FaUA_zk/?modal=true
yeah that worked and fuck that!
even though i never go big, fuck taking risks with the front end of the bike. ive ran odyssey forks from as soon as i could afford them
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this video work? I don't know how to embed this stuff.
http://instagram.com/p/wz6FaUA_zk/?modal=true
Brutal, although it would appear that they snapped at the crown. I'd say it would be un-related to the compression bolt thread size, still you don't see Odyssey forks snapping there.
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I can say whole heartedly that Terre is the coolest Canadian I know. So his opinion on Canadian parts weigh heavier with me than that of mere mortal Canadians.
OG Ruben stem. Hell yeah.
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So the stampy put out x to compromise whatever fork, there should be a fucking trade in. Had these forks for 1/2x get a rebate or 3x get 1/2 rebate.
My forks seem solid, but they've been there for 4.5 years of weekend warrioring. It's time to replace them as: theoretical x < experimental x. When Lx=Ex death seems next.
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So the stampy put out x to compromise whatever fork, there should be a fucking trade in. Had these forks for 1/2x get a rebate or 3x get 1/2 rebate.
My forks seem solid, but they've been there for 4.5 years of weekend warrioring. It's time to replace them as: theoretical x < experimental x. When Lx=Ex death seems next.
It's funny to me that people actually buy into Stampy. How much do you think Odyssey paid to have a sticker slapped on someone's machine in a factory that makes every other brands forks? Notice how you never see the face of the person? It's so you don't see the tiny little Asian factory worker. Makes me laugh that people assume Odyssey is made in the USA. That's almost disrespectful as isnt G from the UK?
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Is there ever a claim that Odyssey is a Made in the USA company?
I feel like if anyone truly believes that than it's their own fault for being a moron.
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So the stampy put out x to compromise whatever fork, there should be a fucking trade in. Had these forks for 1/2x get a rebate or 3x get 1/2 rebate.
My forks seem solid, but they've been there for 4.5 years of weekend warrioring. It's time to replace them as: theoretical x < experimental x. When Lx=Ex death seems next.
It's funny to me that people actually buy into Stampy. How much do you think Odyssey paid to have a sticker slapped on someone's machine in a factory that makes every other brands forks? Notice how you never see the face of the person? It's so you don't see the tiny little Asian factory worker. Makes me laugh that people assume Odyssey is made in the USA. That's almost disrespectful as isnt G from the UK?
I agree with your first sentence. The rest doesnt make any sense though. Who really thinks Odyssey stuff is made in the US? Also, according to a post from G somewhere else on the forum, the guy setting up the forks in the machine is an American white dude...
I just take it with a grain of salt, as anyone can make a video of some forks on a press, throw a bar graph over it and say "ours win". Its not that I dont believe in Odyssey forks, but the source of the video is a little biased. This kind of stuff needs to be tested independently for it to really matter. Whatever.
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"This kind of stuff needs to be tested independently for it to really matter. Whatever."
Dang that would be rad to see. Less companies using it as a marketing tool and actually seeing who's lasted and whose didn't.
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who ever thought shit made in the US was any good?
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Its a generally accepted fact that Odyssey makes some of the strongest parts out there, regardless of the stampy test.
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also they have a great warrenty, and always have. thats the real clincher
their forks break, ive broken some, ive seen plenty of other people break them too, but theyre still deffos one of the stronger forks out there and yeah if you break em you should be able to get the replaced for free
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To translate those tests into real world terms would be sweet to see on a fork card.
We don't recommend riding these 4 years if you're doing gaps to wallrides and big 180s.
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Let's assume Stampy is a machine in a factory that makes heaps of other forks. How does that negate the results in any way?
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It's funny to me that people actually buy into Stampy. How much do you think Odyssey paid to have a sticker slapped on someone's machine in a factory that makes every other brands forks? Notice how you never see the face of the person? It's so you don't see the tiny little Asian factory worker. Makes me laugh that people assume Odyssey is made in the USA. That's almost disrespectful as isnt G from the UK?
Capitals just to be clear, not shouting :)
1. NO OTHER BRAND OF BMX FORK is made in that factory.
2. I personally devised and designed all the test rigs and test protocols used in the Stampy tests.
3. The guy setting up all the tests is our guy in Taiwan, he is 6foot, rides BMX (really well) and a super super nice guy. Yes he is "asian" lots of people there are, do you have a problem with that? He does NOT work for the factory and he does not manufacture the parts.
4. ALL the forks are clearly marked as made in Taiwan. The factory who makes them doesn't work for any other BMX brands, but they do make super high end Steel, Titanium and Aluminium road and mountainbikes. The capabilities to make the forks in the USA dont really exist, we would have to cut a LOT of beneficial features. Getting hold of seamless tube is hard enough, let alone having it custom drawn.
5. Yes, the Stampy tests would ideally be performed by an independent 3rd party, you are welcome to set yourself up as one. (virtually) No bike parts are independently tested like this, even helmets are "self certified". Any of our competitors are welcome to duplicate our tests, but all they have actually done is run the (standard) CEN tests which are pathetic.
:)
G.
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It's funny to me that people actually buy into Stampy. How much do you think Odyssey paid to have a sticker slapped on someone's machine in a factory that makes every other brands forks? Notice how you never see the face of the person? It's so you don't see the tiny little Asian factory worker. Makes me laugh that people assume Odyssey is made in the USA. That's almost disrespectful as isnt G from the UK?
Capitals just to be clear, not shouting :)
1. NO OTHER BRAND OF BMX FORK is made in that factory.
2. I personally devised and designed all the test rigs and test protocols used in the Stampy tests.
3. The guy setting up all the tests is our guy in Taiwan, he is 6foot, rides BMX (really well) and a super super nice guy. Yes he is "asian" lots of people there are, do you have a problem with that? He does NOT work for the factory and he does not manufacture the parts.
4. ALL the forks are clearly marked as made in Taiwan. The factory who makes them doesn't work for any other BMX brands, but they do make super high end Steel, Titanium and Aluminium road and mountainbikes. The capabilities to make the forks in the USA dont really exist, we would have to cut a LOT of beneficial features. Getting hold of seamless tube is hard enough, let alone having it custom drawn.
5. Yes, the Stampy tests would ideally be performed by an independent 3rd party, you are welcome to set yourself up as one. (virtually) No bike parts are independently tested like this, even helmets are "self certified". Any of our competitors are welcome to duplicate our tests, but all they have actually done is run the (standard) CEN tests which are pathetic.
:)
G.
Much respect, G. Much respect!
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also they have a great warrenty, and always have. thats the real clincher
their forks break, ive broken some, ive seen plenty of other people break them too, but theyre still deffos one of the stronger forks out there and yeah if you break em you should be able to get the replaced for free
The lifetime warranty in BMX is one of the worst marketing ploys in history. Do you honestly think a piece of steel should last a lifetime? More than a year?
Not only does it make people assume a fork should last forever, it kills shops.
Think about it like this... to complete with Odysseys marketing, every brand now has to slap on a lifetime warranty whether the company is doing it because they believe they will last that long or not . Now instead of shops getting a resale on forks a few years down the line, they will be handling warranty claims for little Timmy.
If you've ever worked at or supported a core or small shop, you know that every bit of income matters. BMX retail is based of consumable products, shit breaks or wears out.... buy a new one.
Imagine if you said "lifetime warranty on PC pedals." While you know that product surely wont last that long, imagine how many you can sell using that claim.
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Think about it like this... to complete with Odysseys marketing, every brand now has to slap on a lifetime warranty whether the company is doing it because they believe they will last that long or not . Now instead of shops getting a resale on forks a few years down the line, they will be handling warranty claims for little Timmy.
If you've ever worked at or supported a core or small shop, you know that every bit of income matters. BMX retail is based of consumable products, shit breaks or wears out.... buy a new one.
yeah odyssey's business model of investing all that cash designing, manufacturing, testing and shipping their forks just for crash replacements and not to sell them so they can deny lbs business is pure win.
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also they have a great warrenty, and always have. thats the real clincher
their forks break, ive broken some, ive seen plenty of other people break them too, but theyre still deffos one of the stronger forks out there and yeah if you break em you should be able to get the replaced for free
The lifetime warranty in BMX is one of the worst marketing ploys in history. Do you honestly think a piece of steel should last a lifetime? More than a year?
Not only does it make people assume a fork should last forever, it kills shops.
Think about it like this... to complete with Odysseys marketing, every brand now has to slap on a lifetime warranty whether the company is doing it because they believe they will last that long or not . Now instead of shops getting a resale on forks a few years down the line, they will be handling warranty claims for little Timmy.
If you've ever worked at or supported a core or small shop, you know that every bit of income matters. BMX retail is based of consumable products, shit breaks or wears out.... buy a new one.
Imagine if you said "lifetime warranty on PC pedals." While you know that product surely wont last that long, imagine how many you can sell using that claim.
41 thermal stuff has always had a lifetime replacement warranty (for 15 years or so). The idea that this has had any significant effect on small shops compared to say, the internet, is crazy.
For the first few years, other brands tried to say that it was bogus and wouldn't be honoured etc, and waited for it to disappear... When that obviously wasn't the case they started trying their own versions and offered a similar warranty... but the warranty rates for these inferior forks, cranks, bars was way too high for them to be able to sustain it, so they quietly dropped them or added so many terms and conditions that it was effectively gone.
If the 41 thermal warranty was an issue for shops then they would have stopped selling it years ago, but the truth is that good shops know that the best way for them to survive and thrive is to keep people riding, to have them on reliable bikes that last, so they actually tend to give good advice and favour the Odyssey stuff to customers.
Riders buy new parts for more reasons than just because their old ones broke, they want to try a different rake, or cut their steerer too short or want brake bosses or whatever, and knowing that they can get a good resale value one their old Odyssey ones encourages this.
When we had truly crap parts as the only option in BMX (back in the 90's when I started) you needed a new set of forks every month, or even week, this wasn't good for bike shops, it was terrible, because nobody could afford to ride, BMX very nearly died simply because the bikes weren't up to the way people rode. Now we have strong parts and the sport is super healthy.
TL;DR Bollocks.
:)
G.
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laylow you are a dumbass
i know plenty of people who buy odyssey forks then when they break they dont bother chasing up the warranty and just buy a new set of forks. then theres the people who change parts a lot and sell their odyssey forks on to someone else which automatically voids the warranty. so no, bike shops arent going out of business because of odyssey. thats a dumb shit stirring troll argument
the fact that there is a warranty reflects positively on odyssey and their product, in that they can be confident enough in it to offer such a comprehensive warranty. they honour it too, ive had a new set of forks off them like 6-7 years ago, which was great cos i didnt have money to buy a new set of odysseys at that time and id have had to settle for inferior forks otherwise. since then i bought another set of their forks brand new because i was so pleased with the other ones i bought
but by all means, go waste your money on some other shitty forks, noone is making you buy odyssey parts. you are free to spend your money on whatever you like
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also they have a great warrenty, and always have. thats the real clincher
their forks break, ive broken some, ive seen plenty of other people break them too, but theyre still deffos one of the stronger forks out there and yeah if you break em you should be able to get the replaced for free
Not only does it make people assume a fork should last forever, it kills shops.
Not true. Not even a shred of truth. Do you even work at a shop?
The cost of sending a set of forks back to a distributor is negligible and some distros will have a rep come pick them up, so that's not really a stress on the shop. The only stress would be the customer's experience in the shop. If the company doesn't take care of the customer it puts the shop in a bad place and gives the customer a bad experience. If the customer is well taken care of by the company and shop it is about as positive as the situation can be. Whatever the case, in terms of customer experience it comes down to the service.
I have seen some odyssey forks sent back but they've been very old and usually developed a small crack rather than actually failing - so no one gets hurt. I can't say that of all forks.
Director forks weren't in the same basket as other Odyssey forks, plenty of them came back but they're not available anymore. Still, everyone that bought them back was taken care of.
I haven't seen any of the recent R series forks come back but plenty have left the shop.
Now, if you're saying that products that actually last kills a shop because riders don't replace their parts you're also way off. If a rider keeps having to fix and replace shit the hobby gets mighty pricey and people burn out on it, start ghetto-fixing shit or just stick to the used market as it more affordable. That could change a shop.
If you think a company's warranty somehow killed your shop, you probably ran a shit fucking shop.
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Notice how you never see the face of the person? It's so you don't see the tiny little Asian factory worker.
if you're implying child/underage workers, its already been pointed out several times on this forum (or the earlier versions, of which all content has sadly disappeared about 2 years ago) that the human rights record and manufacturing conditions are on par with most western manufacturing hub. taiwan is NOT like vietnam, cambodia, china, thailand, the phillippines, tahiti, etc in that regard at all.
one of the reasons you see everyone going to taiwan for manufacturing is due to the range of capabilities to produce at a reasonable cost, existing machineries and amount of competition. of course, with that, comes low cost manufacturers that focus on cost savings. but that does not mean taiwan isn't capable of producing goods that are on par/superior to those produced in the US or europe, at a similar/cheaper cost.
it is, in fact, a little too generalizing in this day and age to assume the quality of a product basing largely on geographical factors; it is also surprisingly common for producers to take advantage of this, by exploiting this notion that people still have about certain regions = quality products. for example, Prada "made in italy", bruts produced in Champagne, textiles/clothings "produced" in europe. i could go into more details but that'd be too far off tangent to write in this thread.